Shakeology... Anyone know?

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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby BlueRose » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:51 pm

[quote="Talyn"][quote="BlueRose"]And losing weight isn't as simple as "calories in, calories out". It's about QUALITY calories.


Actually, this is not true. In terms of gaining or losing weight (properly, as in, losing fat, gaining muscle), you can eat WHATEVER type of calories you want provided you meet your required macronutrients (carb/pro/fat). Note: I say this in terms of body composition only.


"provided you meet your required macronutrients (carb/pro/fat)"

EXACTLY. What precisely are you stating that's different from what I said?

Because seriously...on a diet of 1500 calories of crap, I gain. I take in 1500 QUALITY calories...and suddenly my fat % drops, my energy levels are awesome, and down goes the scale to something more appropriate for my height, gender, etc.

You can't honestly tell me it's "black and white" because it's not. There are people who GAIN weight if they don't take in enough calories, and that's QUALITY calories, and the obesity epidemic is because people are starving their bodies on empty calories and processed crap with little to no nutrients. I know of people who take in no more than 800 calories a day and are obese--and they wonder why!
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby tal » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:09 pm

[quote="BlueRose"]"provided you meet your required macronutrients (carb/pro/fat)"

EXACTLY. What precisely are you stating that's different from what I said?


I can work out what my macronutrients are, and meet them based on eating a wide variety of foods. In terms of body composition, it does not matter what type of foods I eat to meet these macronutrient requirements. It is completely different to what you said, because you are saying that in spite of getting the right amount of macronutrients, my body would somehow gain weight just because of the foods I eat to make up the right amount of macronutrients. This is not correct, which renders this:
[quote="BlueRose"]Because seriously...on a diet of 1500 calories of crap, I gain. I take in 1500 QUALITY calories...and suddenly my fat % drops, my energy levels are awesome, and down goes the scale to something more appropriate for my height, gender, etc.


…false. Either you didn't count calories correctly in one/both examples. Or you did not adhere correctly to your junk-based diet because the foods lack satiety.

[quote="BlueRose"]You can't honestly tell me it's "black and white" because it's not. There are people who GAIN weight if they don't take in enough calories, and that's QUALITY calories, and the obesity epidemic is because people are starving their bodies on empty calories and processed crap with little to no nutrients. I know of people who take in no more than 800 calories a day and are obese--and they wonder why!


The problem you are insinuating is education, not anything biological. People are obese not because of sugar, or trans fats, or whatever. They are obese because they do not understand their own macronutrient needs and, more importantly, the macronutrients of the foods they eat.

It is not physically possible for people to gain weight if they don't take in enough calories. What it means is they did not accurate measure their needs in the first place, or they are not accurately measuring what they are taking in.
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby BlueRose » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:18 pm

[quote="Talyn"]It is not physically possible for people to gain weight if they don't take in enough calories. What it means is they did not accurate measure their needs in the first place, or they are not accurately measuring what they are taking in.


And how about those whose measurements are indeed accurate?

I'm telling ya right now...it's not black and white. There are many, many other factors that can come into play ranging from allergies to toxicity.
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby BlueRose » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:18 pm

[quote="Talyn"][quote="BlueRose"]Because seriously...on a diet of 1500 calories of crap, I gain. I take in 1500 QUALITY calories...and suddenly my fat % drops, my energy levels are awesome, and down goes the scale to something more appropriate for my height, gender, etc.


…false. Either you didn't count calories correctly in one/both examples. Or you did not adhere correctly to your junk-based diet because the foods lack satiety.


Except that I did, to the letter.

Are you calling me a liar? Careful.
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby tal » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:28 pm

I don't think you're a liar. I'm sorry I offended you.

Nutrition for me is a very interesting topic and I've spent a lot of time reading about it and debating with people. It's one of my favourite things to talk about, so I am quite passionate about it.

So with that out of the way, I said what I said because I disagree with you, which I hope you can accept without it being implied as a personal attack. I said why I disagreed and gave reasons explaining my position. You don't agree with my reasons, and that's fine, I'd like to talk about why.

[quote="BlueRose"][quote="Talyn"][quote="BlueRose"]Because seriously...on a diet of 1500 calories of crap, I gain. I take in 1500 QUALITY calories...and suddenly my fat % drops, my energy levels are awesome, and down goes the scale to something more appropriate for my height, gender, etc.


…false. Either you didn't count calories correctly in one/both examples. Or you did not adhere correctly to your junk-based diet because the foods lack satiety.


Except that I did, to the letter.


Then that's very interesting. How long did you follow this plan for? How did you keep your protein/carbs/fats the same eating a crappy diet vs eating a very healthy diet? I fully agree with you that you might have more energy, as that can be attritubed to eating more whole foods, but as I said above I was talking purely about gaining or losing weight.

[quote="BlueRose"]There are many, many other factors that can come into play ranging from allergies to toxicity.


I do wonder what role allergies play. As far as I am aware, allergies or intolerances may result in some foods not being digested (for example gluten), which could play a role in limiting absorbtion. But I'm not sure if it would have a massive effect on the majority of people.

What role do you think toxicity plays?

There are other factors as well, like metabolic problems like the ones relating to thyroid, or in cases where people have substance abuses. But again, don't apply to most people.

I still feel though, that in most cases, people need to understand what is in the food they eat. You do this yourself, by the way you tidied up your diet and felt better, which is great. But you miss the point when it comes to the types of foods do not matter as long as you get enough macros on the whole. My view though is that people do not need to shackle themselves to a tidy eating plan that is not convenient, difficult to adhere too and can be socially exclusive (even more so than being vegan!). When if most people just learned how calories and macros work, they could still enjoy foods that would be considered taboo by just about every mainstream diet program and just started living their life a little bit more.
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby thestoatyone » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:20 pm

[quote="BlueRose"]I know of people who take in no more than 800 calories a day and are obese--and they wonder why!


Blue rose, I love ya hun, and nutrition is a way more complex issue than most realise, but if you can find someone who can genuinely maintain an obese frame on 800 KCAL a day you've damn near found a perpetual motion machine.
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby BlueRose » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:42 pm

[quote="thestoatyone"][quote="BlueRose"]I know of people who take in no more than 800 calories a day and are obese--and they wonder why!


Blue rose, I love ya hun, and nutrition is a way more complex issue than most realise, but if you can find someone who can genuinely maintain an obese frame on 800 KCAL a day you've damn near found a perpetual motion machine.


It's called "starvation mode" and yeah, it can happen. Have known plenty of people who couldn't lose any weight until they ate MORE.
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby BlueRose » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:43 pm

A tweet just went through on my follow list that a study in the Journal of American Medical Association showed exactly what I've been saying: not just quantity of calories, but quality are what counts.

You all owe me beers. :twisted:
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby BlueRose » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:48 pm

[quote="Talyn"]I don't think you're a liar. I'm sorry I offended you.


It's quite all right, I know that wasn't your intention.

[quote]
Nutrition for me is a very interesting topic and I've spent a lot of time reading about it and debating with people. It's one of my favourite things to talk about, so I am quite passionate about it.


Ditto, lol!

[quote]Then that's very interesting. How long did you follow this plan for? How did you keep your protein/carbs/fats the same eating a crappy diet vs eating a very healthy diet? I fully agree with you that you might have more energy, as that can be attritubed to eating more whole foods, but as I said above I was talking purely about gaining or losing weight.


I'm now 20-25 lbs lighter and I'm eating MORE calories than I used to, significantly so. Before I couldn't eat more than 1,000 calories or I'd gain. Now I eat, on average, 1500-2000 (depending on type of workout or rest day) and I weigh significantly less. I'm also eating far better.

[quote]
[quote="BlueRose"]There are many, many other factors that can come into play ranging from allergies to toxicity.


I do wonder what role allergies play. As far as I am aware, allergies or intolerances may result in some foods not being digested (for example gluten), which could play a role in limiting absorbtion. But I'm not sure if it would have a massive effect on the majority of people.


I gained 75 pounds in college mostly due to putting crap in my body that it didn't like. I had all sorts of digestive problems that never really went away until animal products were minimized and then outright eliminated.

[quote]
What role do you think toxicity plays?


A role...not major, but definitely there. I think there's too much crap, too much processed genetically modified chemicals, this that and the other in our food--particularly in the US. I've known too many people who have come here from Europe, never changed what they ate nor how much, and gained twenty lbs.

[quote]
There are other factors as well, like metabolic problems like the ones relating to thyroid, or in cases where people have substance abuses. But again, don't apply to most people.


Yeah, I won't even touch those but they are relevant.

[quote]
I still feel though, that in most cases, people need to understand what is in the food they eat. You do this yourself, by the way you tidied up your diet and felt better, which is great.

And lost a fuckton of weight. :wink:

[quote]But you miss the point when it comes to the types of foods do not matter as long as you get enough macros on the whole. My view though is that people do not need to shackle themselves to a tidy eating plan that is not convenient, difficult to adhere too and can be socially exclusive (even more so than being vegan!). When if most people just learned how calories and macros work, they could still enjoy foods that would be considered taboo by just about every mainstream diet program and just started living their life a little bit more.

Macros, schmacros. They're macronutrients and they're only part of the equation. The micronutrients are also a vital part of the diet. :)
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby tal » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:08 pm

[quote="BlueRose"]A tweet just went through on my follow list that a study in the Journal of American Medical Association showed exactly what I've been saying: not just quantity of calories, but quality are what counts.

You all owe me beers. :twisted:


Got a link for that by any chance? I did some googlefu but couldn't find it.

As for the rest of your post, well, we are pretty much on the same page.

Agree with everything else you said. Well done on the weight loss. But just so you know... I also lost a bunch of weight myself, like 12kg, last year, following a different approach to yours ;) I think at the end of the day just eat healthy most of the time and if you have the odd bit of junk it's OK... I am quite sure we can agree on that!

[quote="BlueRose"]Macros, schmacros. They're macronutrients and they're only part of the equation. The micronutrients are also a vital part of the diet. :)


Wasn't discounting micros at all... they are of course very important. I always ensure to get sufficient myself and recommend everyone does the same. I just don't think they are linked to body composition.
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby alexander » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:49 am

[quote="xJimx"]Looks like a load of old bollocks if you ask me. Save your money.




I agree... just save your money instead. And for sure later you can use it in something more useful.
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby thestoatyone » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:52 am

[quote="BlueRose"][quote="thestoatyone"][quote="BlueRose"]I know of people who take in no more than 800 calories a day and are obese--and they wonder why!


Blue rose, I love ya hun, and nutrition is a way more complex issue than most realise, but if you can find someone who can genuinely maintain an obese frame on 800 KCAL a day you've damn near found a perpetual motion machine.


It's called "starvation mode" and yeah, it can happen. Have known plenty of people who couldn't lose any weight until they ate MORE.


It looks like the rest of the thread is coming to a goodwill compromise solution, but I'm afraid I do have to worry this particular wound a little. Yes, short term drop in energy intake will a deleterious impact on weight loss, but in the long-term you just can't expand more calories than you're consuming without losing weight.

I get a bit touchy about as my wife (RD, now working in weight-loss services for disadvantaged groups) regularly rants about how this message really baffles less intellectually agile individuals, and cause them to eat more than they need, stifling their attempts to obtain a healthy weight.

That and "Carbs are bad" are the main causes of ear-ache for me on the car journey home...
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby mouche » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:35 pm

Ok I was going to try and stay away from posting in this but I can't do it.

[quote="BlueRose"][quote="Talyn"][quote="BlueRose"]And losing weight isn't as simple as "calories in, calories out". It's about QUALITY calories.


Actually, this is not true. In terms of gaining or losing weight (properly, as in, losing fat, gaining muscle), you can eat WHATEVER type of calories you want provided you meet your required macronutrients (carb/pro/fat). Note: I say this in terms of body composition only.


"provided you meet your required macronutrients (carb/pro/fat)"

EXACTLY. What precisely are you stating that's different from what I said?


Actually, you're not making the same argument.

You, BlueRose, are talking about food type whereas if I understand correctly, Talyn is referring to calorie type. To reduce it to a very basic and very hypothetical example; 1500kcal of protein can help you lose weight, while 1500kcal of fat/carbohydrate can help you gain weight, as the body processes these in different ways and at different rates, and therefore is less or more likely to end up storing a part of those calories as fat.

So: YES macronutrients matter as much as calories in vs calories out, NO it doesn't matter how you get those macronutrients. If you can find a way to get more protein, fewer carbs and less fat from a junk food diet, it will have the same effect on weight loss/gain as getting more protein, fewer carbs and less fat from a health food diet.

(I also can't help noticing that the OP asked for a review of Shakeology from somebody who was not a Beach Body coach, and so far the only person who has recommended it is a Beach Body coach)

Edited to add: sorry, Talyn, I know you can speak for yourself so I don't mean to argue on your behalf but you and Stoaty (via Mrs Stoaty) have already said everything I would have said!
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby BlueRose » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:03 pm

[quote="mouche"](I also can't help noticing that the OP asked for a review of Shakeology from somebody who was not a Beach Body coach, and so far the only person who has recommended it is a Beach Body coach)


Because unlike everyone else here, I HAVE tried the product. And I don't stand to make a dime off of my recommendation given the guy asking for a review already has a coach! Duhhhhh :roll:

And here's a link to that study that I promised: http://www.bostonherald.com/entertainment/health/nutrition/view/20120627its_not_just_how_many_calories_but_what_kind_study_finds/
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Re: Shakeology... Anyone know?

Postby BlueRose » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:05 pm

[quote="mouche"]You, BlueRose, are talking about food type whereas if I understand correctly, Talyn is referring to calorie type. To reduce it to a very basic and very hypothetical example; 1500kcal of protein can help you lose weight, while 1500kcal of fat/carbohydrate can help you gain weight, as the body processes these in different ways and at different rates, and therefore is less or more likely to end up storing a part of those calories as fat.


Actually we were both arguing over the same thing. I wasn't just talking about food type vs calorie type....
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