Clif Bars: Not Suitable

[beforewisdom]

To my knowledge, most of the palm oil and concomitant deforestation is produced is for direct human consumption. The vast majority of soy production and deforestation is done for livestock feed. If people chose to eat soy directly versus processed through animals the demand for soy beans would drop drammatically, reducing if not eliminating deforestation. Palm oil is being consumed directly by people and that is driving deforestation.

[Talyn]

To my knowledge, most of the palm oil and concomitant deforestation is produced is for direct human consumption. The vast majority of soy production and deforestation is done for livestock feed. If people chose to eat soy directly versus processed through animals the demand for soy beans would drop drammatically, reducing if not eliminating deforestation. Palm oil is being consumed directly by people and that is driving deforestation.

So basically palm oil = human food
Soya beans = human food or animal food = human food

As the world isn't going to go vegan overnight, is the comparison not the same?

This is the thing that annoys me about being anti-palm oil. I don't see it being any better or worse for the environment than soy or corn, which we know is resulting in deforestation. A reduction in soya/corn crops as a net result of people going vegan would reduce deforestation to plant soy/corn crops in a much larger scale, as you said yourself. This would do a lot more than not consuming palm oil on the mere basis that you think it may have been sourced through deforestation.

[NatB]

The issue with palm oil is the decimation of the orang-utans as the majority of deforestation associated with palm oil is of the Indonesian rainforest.

Whilst it could be argued that its just as bad to tear down forests to grow soy etc some of the brutal and harrowing pictures I have seen of orang-utans beaten, burned and mutilated because people want their habitat has disturbed me enough not to touch the shit!

Interestingly Lush won't use it at all as they say there is no such thing as "sustainable" palm oil. So whilst there is that element of doubt I will go to any lengths I can to avoid it whether in foods or cosmetics. That includes foods that say "vegetable oil".

There is enough variety of products out there in the vegan world to be able to do so!

[muchluv]

Some palm oil is African and more sustainable...

[beforewisdom]

That isn't good enough for answering the question:

"I'm a vegan for ethical reasons. I don't want to drive any species into extinction or deforest. Is the palm oil in this Clif bar I am about to eat from the minority of palm oil that isn't destructive? How do I know? Can I trust the company to spend the money to monitor their sources?"

[muchluv]

It was more in reply to NatB's post about orangutans

[Fallen_Horse]

That isn't good enough for answering the question:

"I'm a vegan for ethical reasons. I don't want to drive any species into extinction or deforest. Is the palm oil in this Clif bar I am about to eat from the minority of palm oil that isn't destructive? How do I know? Can I trust the company to spend the money to monitor their sources?"

If you really don't want to drive any species into extinction, you had better look into not puchasing new goods, not using cars or planes, only buying local food, and using very little electricity, and then only from renewable energy.

[JP]

actually its not you as the consumer doing any of that, its the companies, but anyway

[beforewisdom]

That isn't good enough for answering the question:

"I'm a vegan for ethical reasons. I don't want to drive any species into extinction or deforest. Is the palm oil in this Clif bar I am about to eat from the minority of palm oil that isn't destructive? How do I know? Can I trust the company to spend the money to monitor their sources?"

If you really don't want to drive any species into extinction, you had better look into not puchasing new goods, not using cars or planes, only buying local food, and using very little electricity, and then only from renewable energy.

That is a cop out reply.

The devil is in the details and everyone knows that different choices make different results. If you didn't believe that you wouldn't be eating a vegan diet in the first place whether you care about animals or your own health.

[muchluv]

I emaield them asking where their palm oil comes from and if its sustainable, havent had a reply yet

[muchluv]

Thank you for contacting us about our Builder’s Bars and palm oil.



We are committed to sustainable palm oil. We have researched our palm oil supply chain to verify the environmental and social responsibility of our suppliers.



- We use USDA-certified organic palm kernel oil in many of our bars, which ensures a strong ecological approach to palm oil production.



- Additionally, we have personally visited our organic suppliers to confirm their commitment to positive community and environmental practices. Our organic supplier is planning to be rainforest alliance certified this year.



- All our other palm oil suppliers are members of the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO) which promotes sustainable growth and use of sustainable palm oil. We believe this is a good first step toward a more sustainable solution.



As you can imagine, organic ingredient sourcing is highly dynamic and we constantly seek new suppliers to source our quality ingredients. So unfortunately, as much as I would love to tell you all the details, we cannot do so. We hope you understand. Offering nutritious food is what we do and like you, we care as much as you do about what we put in our bodies.



We sincerely want to do our part to protect the planet and the people and wildlife that inhabit it. We continue to learn more and more as our journey toward sustainability continues and we thank you for joining us on the journey.

[Fallen_Horse]

That isn't good enough for answering the question:

"I'm a vegan for ethical reasons. I don't want to drive any species into extinction or deforest. Is the palm oil in this Clif bar I am about to eat from the minority of palm oil that isn't destructive? How do I know? Can I trust the company to spend the money to monitor their sources?"

If you really don't want to drive any species into extinction, you had better look into not puchasing new goods, not using cars or planes, only buying local food, and using very little electricity, and then only from renewable energy.

That is a cop out reply.

The devil is in the details and everyone knows that different choices make different results. If you didn't believe that you wouldn't be eating a vegan diet in the first place whether you care about animals or your own health.

What I am saying is that if you had to care about eating a steak or eating crackers that are .02% milk, it makes more sense to worry about the steak WAY before worrying about the crackers. Being a vegan who eats Clif Bars compared to being a vegan who doesn't is not going to be a big step like the other steps I mentioned. I just think there are much better targets for spending our ire and energy and time on than the Clif company, that's all.

[knackers]

All our other palm oil suppliers are members of the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO) which promotes sustainable growth and use of sustainable palm oil. We believe this is a good first step toward a more sustainable solution.

Ive heard that before.

The trouble is some companies say its bullshit and it makes you secondguess whether there is such a thing.

I spose unless we fund a trusted vegan detective over there to give us a report we are never ever going to know if RSPO is trustworthy or not...

[NatB]

Well for me personally if I can avoid anything with Palm oil in I will. Doesn't have a huge impact on my life and I feel better about it. The thing with being vegan is it's never black and white. Everyone has to decide where to personally draw the line.

Whether or not it makes a difference who knows but if it helps save the life of one orang-utan well I'm happy!

[xrodolfox]

This thread has convinced me to avoid Palm Oil when possible and/or convenient, which is most of the darn time.

I still love Cliff bars (since my parents gift them to me often), and I will eat them, but I'm not going to go out of my way from now on.

Point: the huge mess about soy and rainforest deforestation is always weirdly out of context. The soy that's easily available here for human consumption is all locally grown, if not grown in the USA in a neighboring state. I know that the same can't be said about palm oil, but sometimes the uproar over a product is created as much by competing industries as it is by well-meaning environmentalists. I dislike the soy = rain forest deforestation angle because most soy eaten by humans here in the midwest is made on local US farms.