Porn = not vegan

[RBE.VeganZeitgeist]

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[baldy]

My statement comes from having discussed this subject on numerous occassions with Females over the years.

"The plural of anecdote is not data." (Roger Brinner)

[etherspin]

Phrases like ”free will” and ”consenting adults” often come up in this discussion. But where do we draw the line? Does a drug addict have free will? Can someone with a severe personality disorder give consent? Or someone who had their integrity and self-esteem crushed by repeated sexual abuse while growing up? What about 18 year olds, can they fully appreciate the consequences participating in porn movies will have on their lives?

Also, to be honest, isn’t degradation sort of the point of porn? The contents of the hetero porn I’ve encountered and the fact that the female participants always are referred to as “sluts” makes it hard not to conclude that people get off to humiliation. Obviously, there’s a huge variation, but the mainstream porn that you can come across without even searching for it is very rough in my eyes.

I guess porn reflects people’s fantasies but I also think it affects their views on sex, especially when young people watch a lot of it. I think it makes guys feel inadequate size-wise and I think it inspires them to make certain demands on their partners. It’s heartbreaking to read letters to sex columns by young girls, describing how they’re made to do things that are painful or make them gag, asking for advice on how to make it more bearable.

I don’t have any moral objections to the concept of porn and I’m sure there are films out there that don’t make you feel like you’re watching rape or prostitution. Still… how would you feel if your daughter became a porn actress?

exactly, abuse ,mental illness , circumstance etc can make people lose the full set of rational faculties that humans are still in the process of learning to use(ie humans have capacity for rationality and reasonably objective choices but we aren't yet vulcans).

[beforewisdom]

My statement comes from having discussed this subject on numerous occassions with Females over the years.

"The plural of anecdote is not data." (Roger Brinner)

Ooo. That is a keeper.

[RBE.VeganZeitgeist]

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[RBE.VeganZeitgeist]

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[xrodolfox]

RBE:
I think that was applied to your "I know females who would agree" comment. The fact that you "know females" who've agree with you is quite different than data. I don't really care if you agree with me or not. Winning an internet debate makes everyone a looser.

I've done the research before, and I know that your premise is complete and utter BS based on the empirical data I've seen on sex workers. You can do that research yourself and see what you come up with rather than "I've talked to females".

If you had read the thread, you'd see that your points about people willingly filming their sexual activities without pay has always existed. That point that you made: well, it's been made in this same thread, and there's still issues.

If you don't want to seem like an argumentative dolt, you can 1) have a point that either is so plain/obvious that you don't need research 2) cite something brief, and 3) use logic when you argue. It also helps to read the thread, unless your point is so novel that it impossible that it's been said before. You have shown yourself to have a grasp on some, but not all of these aspects at the same time.

I am sure that you aren't sloppily combative all the time. If you fix the sloppiness, or the combativeness, you'll end up actually making point that people take seriously. I frankly appreciate the arguing, but I am sick of dealing with sloppiness in arguments. I have to deal with it in my line of work, and while I'm sure that there is a place where being sloppy is appreciated, I certainly don't.

[RBE.VeganZeitgeist]

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[Webb]

What does not seem to have been mentioned in this porn debate is the fact that Females are on average paid 4 times the amount of their Male counterparts. A lack of Equality in any industry is disgusting.

I think you are forgetting that women are typically the "stars" of the film. They have to endure much more than the men do both on and off the set. I'm not sure if you were making some sort of an attempt at a reverse-sexism theory or what, but I certainly don't feel like my gender is threatened because women in porn make more money than men. Also, the producers and directors probably make more money per film than the actors (forgive me for not doing research on this point) and the crew is usually made of mostly men.

You're concerned with one of the few industries that seems, upon first glance, to be imbalanced in favor of women. Women in the U.S. on average make 80% of the income as men, and the gender pay gap is significantly larger in many other countries. CEO's, managerial positions, politicians, law enforcers are all predominately male. This fact could also be tied in with the way porn enforces the gender myth of male dominance over submissive females.

If anything is disgusting, it is the way women are treated in the porn industry, even if their work is consensual.

[RBE.VeganZeitgeist]

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[xrodolfox]

In that case if your point isn't to be regarded as 'sloppy' or BS- you show us some more of this 'empiracle data' you refer too.Otherwise one might come accross as being a tad condascending and patronising wouldn't you say? And which specific point I've made lacks 'logic'?

Yes. I came off as condescending. It was likely because I was condescending.

I stated things that seem obvious. You stated things that need some backing up. If you don't think the sky is blue, well, you are the one who is going to have to provide the data.

Your arguing is sloppy. It's not just this thread. The fact that you cited "females you've talked to" seems absolutely absurd.

I study labor.

One of the facts about labor in a market economy is that people are regularly compelled to do many things against their will. Do you think boxers enjoy getting hurt? Or that garbage people all love picking up garbage? Or that actors got into acting because they are pretty? Porn actors are like other people: Surely some got into it because they have a high sex drive, or are exhibitionists, or a myriad of other assumptions that you are making (source: your posts). However, most porn actors "fell" into the work rather than sought it out. Not high sex drive. Not due to enjoying sex more than most. Not exhibitionism. Not many assumptions you are making. There are exceptions (christie canyon, for example), but most actors have had a totally different experience (Nina Hartley, Traci Lords, Linda Lovelace, Marilyn Chambers... and those are examples just from the 1980s'). Those examples are because they've got autobiographies or other interviews published well after their careers ended (and thus are more immune to industry backlash).

Meanwhile, you've "talked to females" and then made broad generalizations about pay inequality in the porn industry. That's sloppy. And yes, I'll be condescending until you use proper logic. Hopefully, that won't take too long. I prefer not to be a jerk.

[xrodolfox]

What does not seem to have been mentioned in this porn debate is the fact that Females are on average paid 4 times the amount of their Male counterparts. A lack of Equality in any industry is disgusting.

I think you are forgetting that women are typically the "stars" of the film. They have to endure much more than the men do both on and off the set. I'm not sure if you were making some sort of an attempt at a reverse-sexism theory or what, but I certainly don't feel like my gender is threatened because women in porn make more money than men. Also, the producers and directors probably make more money per film than the actors (forgive me for not doing research on this point) and the crew is usually made of mostly men.

You're concerned with one of the few industries that seems, upon first glance, to be imbalanced in favor of women. Women in the U.S. on average make 80% of the income as men, and the gender pay gap is significantly larger in many other countries. CEO's, managerial positions, politicians, law enforcers are all predominately male. This fact could also be tied in with the way porn enforces the gender myth of male dominance over submissive females.

If anything is disgusting, it is the way women are treated in the porn industry, even if their work is consensual.

http://www.xcritic.com/columns/column.php?columnID=1179 The Top 10 Women Directors in Porn.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... porn-women Porn made for Women by Women


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... idate.html

http://stason.org/TULARC/sex-relationsh ... -make.html

People can read these articles and make up there own minds-But to me there seems little suggestion of Women feeling exploited or of them being treated disgusting . I think when you wrote 'the way porn re-inforces the gender myth of male dominance over submissive females'
it raises an interesting question in itself-because if that is the case-who is exploiting who here? (There are many different genres though that do cater for Men being submissive to Women)

What?

Are you trying to say that women have an equal voice in the porn industry?

And you do this by showing that there's a market for women directed/pro-women porn? There's also a market for snuff films, for besteality, rape-fantasy, and child porn. You know that, right?

The fact that there exists pro-women fully consensual porn doesn't mean the that whole industry is fair or equal. That's faulty logic. You got the fact correct, but not the reasoning the follows. There is correlation, but not causation.

I do not believe that porn is a universally oppressive institution, but I also harbor no fantasy that porn is also a haven for women to get paid more than men and where men are exploited either (which seems to be your theses?)

It seems that your argument is that all men are exploited in porn, or at the least, that the well paid women in porn aren't exploited ever. There are so many obvious ways in which both such statements are false.

[RBE.VeganZeitgeist]

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[xrodolfox]

Data? Just provided a list of porn actors who say things contrary to you points. I am not going to go through their biographies again or look up the interviews ive seen to make a point that only you dont get Frankly, my points seem obvious to everyone but you.

Your claims are the ones that are absurd and based on poor logic and assumptions. You presented articles that no one disputed but from where you came to absurd conclusions. Don't claim laziness as an excuse to deal when it isn't facts you lack but logic.

[RBE.VeganZeitgeist]

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