Clif Bars: Not Suitable

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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby Big Good Wolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:12 am

"Minimizing Clif intake" still sounds like scaremongering to me.
A quick bit of internet research shows The average man should eat no more than 30g of saturated fat a day. and Total Fat = 3.5g.
So, even an average man, sitting in office all day, driving to work, then sitting in an armchair all evening, is only getting about 1/8 of their maximum RDA of fat from one bar.
I would imagine for most people reading this forum, it's a far smaller proportion than that.
Is it really a problem ?
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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby beforewisdom » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:13 am

Big Good Wolf wrote:It's not very helpful just saying "This oil contains saturated fat ( the kind that clogs arteries )"


Yes it is, you now know there is a potential hazard there whereas you did not know that before.

Thinking that you are fine, because you feel good now and are athletic doesn't mean anything. JP felt fine and was athletic when his doctor started suggesting statins on him for his own good. It doesn't matter that JPs issues was transfats instead of saturated fat. Both will clog your arteries and both will sneak up on a person, especially vegans (like myself) who eat it as "hidden" ingredients /not bothering to look because they are vegans. Back to my point, you can be doing great things for your health, feel fine, have a serious problem and not know it. JP was one example. I have a friend who is a vegan activist. A few years ago she was a vegetarian, slim, hot, in her 30s and a regular exerciser. She felt great. One day at a free healht fare she had a sonic test on her neck and learned that most of her carotid artery was blocked.

My father is in his 70s. Though not a veg*n he followed most of the advice health authorities gave. He ate reasonably well for an omni. He was slim despite having a disposition to putting on weight. He hadn't taken a prescription in decades. Though retired he held down a part time job and did activism for the homeless..........in his 70s.

Back in February he went to his doctor with some mild complaints. His doctor made an appointment for him for bypass surgery for a week later before my father left his office. All of the arteries feeding his heart were over 90% blocked as was his carotid arteries.

He felt fine. He almost didn't go to his doctor. He could have had a major event at ANY moment.

My point is that feel fine, even very good and doing good things for yourself is not sufficient indication that you are doing okay. It is not sufficient to disregard a common snack having saturated fat in it.

Honestly. I love Clif bars and ate a lot of them. If I didn't discover this on my own and someone told it to me I would be resisting the news. I would be saying the same things "but I eat great the rest of time, I work out, I feel GREAT and I don't these things every single day, etc, etc"

It is one thing to read about it. It is another thing to see someone you know with a 10 inch scar where they broke his sterum open and literally took his heart temporarily out of his body.

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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby Big Good Wolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:21 am

The plural of anecdotes is not evidence.
The NHS recommend a maximum of 30g of saturated fat a day.
How much do you recommend then ?
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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby JP » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:22 am

saturated fats are not that bad...

some sources recommend their intake, such as coconut, for various benefits like testosterone production.

BUt i dont really know enough to say one way or another.
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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby beforewisdom » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:28 am

Big Good Wolf wrote:"Minimizing Clif intake" still sounds like scaremongering to me.


Oh please, no offense, but "scaremongering" is the government putting up signs on the highway asking people to report suspicious activity. Telling people that did not know that a favorite snack has saturated fat isn't.



"internet research". Okay. The second link is from the Clif company. A vested interest in the matter. As for the first link and the 30g a day suggested safety limit, experts, for decades, like Dr. Esselstyn, Dr. Colin Campbell, Dr. Ornish and Dr. McDougall have been saying that mainstream government recommendations are inadequate to protect people's health. Some of those organizations will even admit this saying that asking too much drives people away from doing anything, so that is why they ask them to do an inadequate level of behavior change.

I think the honest answer is that nobody wants to hear bad news about a favorite snack. I don't mean that as insult to anyone. I certainly don't want to hear that and I feel the same reactions.

Many years ago when I was in school I went to a hardcore weight lifting gym while my university was closed over a break. Some huge guy there gave me an unsolicted heads-up about how a favorite exercise I was doing would risk a joint a problem. He seemed to know what he was talking about. I started asking him a lot of questions. It wasn't so much that I was arguing with him as I was arguing with something I wasn't ready to accept. He taught me a great lesson. His face got a visible look of boredom and irritation before he told me "its your health, not mine" and turned away.

I learned not to take it for granted that if I am wrong someone will beat down my door to convince me. People who know things have better things to do with their time than argue with people who are mistaken or don't want to hear things ( I'm not saying you are one of these people ).

I'm repeating myself at this point in the thread.

I shared what I learned.

It is your health, not mine. I'm now empowered to look after myself.

I honestly wish you luck with your regime and your results.

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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby JP » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:31 am

or: you dont like to hear that saturated fat intake doesnt concern every vegan as much as you?

Wouldnt that be as fair to say as what you just said above?

Honest comment - because it is equally bad to be condesending to either direction i think...
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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby Talyn » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:45 am

The part of this thread that I enjoyed the most was the part where you backed up your claims with actual evidence.
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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby Big Good Wolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:48 am

More anecdotes still don't make a compelling argument.

Of course Clif have got a vested interest in claiming their bars contain 3.5g of fat.
They also claim their bars are vegan.
Why do you disbelieve one and not the other ?

Again, if "mainstream government recommendations are inadequate to protect people's health", what is the safe daily intake of saturated fats ?
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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby vegansludge » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:24 pm

I think JP nailed it on the head.
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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby rattus » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:45 pm

I'm gonna have a huge bowl full of different flavour Builder's bars that I got from Wiggle for my tea.

And I'm gonna cover it in takeouts from the local Chinese and Indian.

Probably melt a large tub of margarine over the top too.

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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby ninearms » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:06 pm

Wait... Let me get this straight: people should stop eating Builder bars because they contain a whopping 5g of saturated fat, almost half that of 100g of cashew butter? Really?
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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby thestoatyone » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:43 pm

Most of the research done on saturated fats being killer fats was done when people didn't distinguish between saturated fats and trans fats. Trans fats are seriously bad for you; sat fats are good in moderation. People feeling fine and then finding they have CHD is nothing more than a compelling argument for health screening at appropriate junctures.

Now more to the point, does anyone know where to get these things cheap in the UK?
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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby loveliberate » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:25 am

Of curiousity, what do Builders bars go for wherever you are? Here in the usa, an average cost is about us$1.75 though I have bought them as cheaply as .40 (on sale & using a coupon at the same time.)

On a related note, it would be lovely if there was a website that listed the average prices of common vegan products in countries around the world and/or one that listed where such products were on sale or otherwise available cheaply! :D
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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby Fallen_Horse » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:48 am

Big Good Wolf wrote:"Minimizing Clif intake" still sounds like scaremongering to me.
A quick bit of internet research shows The average man should eat no more than 30g of saturated fat a day. and Total Fat = 3.5g.
So, even an average man, sitting in office all day, driving to work, then sitting in an armchair all evening, is only getting about 1/8 of their maximum RDA of fat from one bar.
I would imagine for most people reading this forum, it's a far smaller proportion than that.
Is it really a problem ?


Interesting how this debate is being framed.

I don't give two craps about fat, but I DO care about processed fat and added sugars, both of which Clif products tend to have too much of.

For example, the standard chocolate chip Clif bar has 23g of of sugar (from brown rice syrup and cane juice) out of a 68g bar. That means that 34% of the mass of the bar is pure sugar! Considering how high the processed sugar intake is for most people (even vegans), I think it's something to be wary of.

And whether the sat. fat in palm oil is as bad as from other sources, who cares? Palm oil is just another processed oil, extracted from a whole food, and should be minimized in the diet.

Anyway, Clif's are vegan, easy, fairly cheap, and delicious, so I'm gonna keep eating them every now-and-then. But as far as a staple of my diet? No thanks!
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Re: Clif Bars: Not Suitable

Postby Big Good Wolf » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:48 am

You still seem to be looking at this from the viewpoint of an average person on an average day.

"Performance nutrition. And great taste. Whether you’re on a 150-mile bike ride or exploring a new trail, this energy bar is built to sustain your adventure."

If I'm on a 12 hour bike race or just cycling to work, I don't necessarily see eating something that's 34% sugar as a bad thing.
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