Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Armchair politics, ethical soapbox and current affairs. Place to discuss vegan ethics and general ethics and politics. Be nice.

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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby loveliberate » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:49 pm

Ok fine then: I also generally agree with JP - as usual. Still quite unsure about the living in England business though... :D
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby DB » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:07 pm

Indeed, I thought JP's post was quite brilliant.
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby xJimx » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:51 pm

ninearms wrote:Anyway, I'm off to rally against children.


Yeah me too. I've just told my 4 & 7 year old daughters that it's all their fault. Selfish bastards.

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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Gelert » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:48 pm

kallefs wrote:Indigenous people is not something to strive after simply because I don't believe that they has as high efficiency/footprint as you claim. And even if they did, them eating animals was not the cause of it.



I have to agree with kallefs here. Many groups of indigenous people got/get around the problem by having a sufficiently low population density and willingess to live a nomadic lifestyle to move on once an area is "hunted out" and/or "gathered out". The fallacy that indigenous or prehistoric populations had no or negligible environmental impact clearest in locations where human mobility is limited, for example on islands, as opposed to large continents. The footprint of human behaviour in terms of species extinctions in the pleistocene is clearest when that mobility is constrained (see Barnosky et al. 2004 Science 306:70 for gems)

Net result of "hunting out" an area is still "ecocide", just with less iPads.

I conclude that the time spent arguing for a nihilistic existence wiping with bullrush as a panacea for our situation at present would be more productively spent by applying the same logic as has served Hom sap for millenia and starting to plan the terraforming and colonization of neighbouring planets to exploit their resources.
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby JP » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:13 pm

i love it when gelert appears out of nowhere and posts some awesome gems :D

good to see you mate!
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby thestoatyone » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:20 pm

JP wrote:i love it when gelert appears out of nowhere and posts some awesome gems :D

good to see you mate!


Like a welsh science ninja of awesomeness :-D
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Johnstuff » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:03 pm

"Net result of "hunting out" an area is still "ecocide", just with less iPads." - Ha ha, yes very true.

Im afraid my outlook is rather bleak (I'd really love to be proved wrong) but it seems to me like humans mess up everything (other animals probably would too if they had the ability). I doubt we will change untill external forces make us change. It'll be 'interesting' to see what happens when our resources run out. Will we then accept we we're/are stupid to over consume, will we become a humble species?
I really hope we never get off this planet, we have no right to mess up another one. Is it odd when some of the cells of a virus actually want the virus to die?

Going vegan makes you much less destructive than the other 99.5%. I believe that to be a vegan takes such a shift in thinking, that if the whole world when vegan then we would probably give much more consideration to the environment etc. and a lot of other problems would be solved.

I relate to the idea that we perhaps should do more than just setting a good example, we can sing for peace and love all we like but that's not gonna destroy Monsanto. To save the world from humanity could well require one to get one's hands dirty. It could still be a futile gesture though that would probably end in prison or assassinsation.

Dunno if there is an answer? Maybe the only answer is to stop looking for one?
"these songs of guidance never stop the violence, we need strong defiance"
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Konstantin » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:44 pm

I don't get the point of the thread Chris. You can interpret veganism as the solution to all problems or a helpful minor personal action, or maybe somewhere inbetween, but surely it still has to be a positive thing because it helps towards a growing vegan movement and reduces demand for animal products.

Loads of other independent choices exist around cars, packaging, consumerism, children etc., hopefully people are thinking about them as well - veganism surely doesn't demand sufficient attention to make the others impossible to consider.

Maybe you felt a bit hassled by previous posts but hopefully you're still going to use the forum and you're just having one of those 'pissed off with it all' times that a lot of us have.

:?
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Talyn » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:20 pm

Konstantin wrote:I don't get the point of the thread Chris. You can interpret veganism as the solution to all problems or a helpful minor personal action, or maybe somewhere inbetween, but surely it still has to be a positive thing because it helps towards a growing vegan movement and reduces demand for animal products.

Loads of other independent choices exist around cars, packaging, consumerism, children etc., hopefully people are thinking about them as well - veganism surely doesn't demand sufficient attention to make the others impossible to consider.

Maybe you felt a bit hassled by previous posts but hopefully you're still going to use the forum and you're just having one of those 'pissed off with it all' times that a lot of us have.

:?


Good post mate.

Chris_Vaughn: Yeah don't get me wrong, I disagree with your attitude, but I think your frustrations are something that a lot of people go through at one time or another. I think we all can make a difference. Being vegan is easy, not hard at all. Individually in the scheme of things that decision may be tiny and insignificant, but to use that as an excuse to not bother and do whatever is nothing short of a copout.

Take a look at veganism say, fifty years ago. As a movement it has gone from a few sandal-wearing hippies, into mainstream, there are now vegans from all walks of life and it is getting more acknowledgement (and resistance) as it grows. Even in the six years I've been vegan I have seen a shift in attitudes.

Hope you can at least think about it a bit more.

Edited to add: Going vegan directly saves approximatley 95 animals every year. So yes, you are making a difference.
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby xrodolfox » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:07 pm

Woah.
I am not reading this whole thread, but Chris, you seem like in a crisis.

Simply put for me:
I am NOT vegan to save animals, or to stem the tide of horrible atrocities towards animals, humans, and the environment. I do not pretend that my vegan life is anything more than "spitting in the forest fire" as you put it.

I do not believe that any "consumer" action such as a personal boycott of animal products will change the market.

However, I have experienced making significant changes in the institutions around me, and I've experienced making even bigger changes when I work collectively with others.

Changing the relationship between humans and the environment/animals/each other is why I am alive.

My veganism is about me. I am happiest with myself when I live as ethically as possible. For me, that means being vegan. It is easy, convenient, healthy, and it sends a political message that animals are not food/toys/products. As a lone consumer, I don't think that my action will have any impact other than to create a market niche for me and other vegans. No net animals will be saved. No more humans will have fair working conditions and wages.

That is what my ACTION and my life is for.

I am not *just* a consumer, I am a participant and actor in the world around me. I am a friend, a citizen, a human being. Thus, if I see my veganism as solely a consumer construct (what I consume and don't consume), then that is the limit of my veganism. If I see my whole self as more than just a consumer, but also a person who's responsibility is to directly act on the world around me through direct action, political organizing, community organizing, and other means, then my veganism is the first step in dismantling animal oppression.

To me, it seems that your crisis is because you understand that a consumer action is limited, and a consumer action cannot remedy that huge problems caused by animal and environmental exploitation. Thus, you need a broader goal than just not consuming.

A person can do more to change things for the better when they are alive. When looking at things as solely a consumer, then the only option to save the world is to die. When we take responsibility, then the option is to dismantle the institutions and have humans take responsibility and live ethically. That would mean dismantling hegemonic market capitalism (IMO), but that way we all thrive.
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby bob_summers » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:54 pm

Talyn wrote:Take a look at veganism say, fifty years ago. As a movement it has gone from a few sandal-wearing hippies, into mainstream, there are now vegans from all walks of life and it is getting more acknowledgement (and resistance) as it grows. Even in the six years I've been vegan I have seen a shift in attitudes.


Some fantastic points in the above posts, but this more or less sums it up for me.

People will usually only adopt a lifestyle change that they perceive as radical, if they see others doing it easily.

Just one way in which we can demonstrate that we're doing it easily is by beating most of the field in an 8hr mountain bike race with GO VEGAN plastered across your bottom. (hope BGW doesn't mind me doing that...)
"No se deja de pedalear cuando se envejece.
Se envejece cuando se deja de pedalear"
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby etherspin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:49 am

Chris Vaughn wrote:
Taking these into account--especially points 1 and 2--it really seems like my personal choice to not eat animals is akin to spitting into a forest fire.

.


the plan is , we eventually want to convince 8 billion people to spit on the forest fire :mrgreen:

economic demand goes both ways, are you suggesting (with the statement about the meat we aren't buying ending up in bins) that money and the lack of it has no impact ? Wouldn't that logically imply that if I buy something Im not increasing demand either? yes vegans are a small % and a tiny fraction in these calculations but there is always consideration of the units of a product sold in the last season , the producers will expand if the numbers suggest that is fruitful or scale down if the demand has dropped and there is always gonna be a tipping point. its reasonably random as to whether or not one of your purchases has impact but it could well be that the sausage you didn't buy today is the 1 sausage that makes a farmer drop the next delivery by 1000 sausages!

I agree with previous commenters here that its not a widely held belief amongst vegans that veganism in itself will fix the world BUT being a consistent vegan certainly etches new grooves into your brain! In my case it connected lots of dots, allowed me to really connect and empathise with the kids I work with (special school/physically and intellectually impaired) has changed the way I relate to infants, companion animals and the way I respond to issues of social justice. This won't apply for everyone as for some, veganism may be the last piece of the puzzle in someone who doesn't harbour a lot of prejudice,malice or selfishness - I reckon my wife is an example of this.. lovely and warm in all aspects of her personality , consistently compassionate and open minded prior to encountering and considering veganism . veganism can in some cases be very transformative for a person.

anyway, I hope you (the OP) find peace with the thoughts bouncing around ya noggin mate! :)
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby DB » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:41 pm

We seem to have lost Chris somewhere along the way.
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Hiking Fox » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:45 pm

Chris Vaughn wrote: Do you know what a tree is?


Yes. I also know what an arsehole is.
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Re: Vegans Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby chewybaws » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:18 pm

DB wrote:We seem to have lost Chris somewhere along the way.
He posted on facebook something along the lines of not being vegan anymore about a week ago. I'm sure now he'll find another topic to post articles about everyday for a couple of months till he changes his mind about that too, and no-one will take him seriously on them either.

I was following this post when it first started and agree with a lot of responses. Basically if you think something's wrong you don't do it, no matter how much of an impact it has.

If everyone follows the mindset that "oh it doesn't make a difference what I do, so I'll just do it" on any ethical or moral subject, then the world is always going to be a majority of morons and nothing will change.

The more people doing the right thing to end suffering, the more awareness, and the balance will eventually shift.
was there a time we weren't at war; when we knew what our hearts and hands were for?
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