Porn?

[Fallen_Horse]

Watching it. Good, neutral, or bad? (for the individual, society, etc.)

[DB]

Interesting you should pose this question given PETA's new angle. Or is that why you ask?

I don't know. I've never given it much thought.

[Fallen_Horse]

Interesting you should pose this question given PETA's new angle. Or is that why you ask?

I don't know. I've never given it much thought.

I did just see that in the news. Those guys just crave attention, at any cost.

The reason I asked is because my girlfriend and I had a bit of a disagreement. She says that there is no place for porn in a modern, civilized person, and I am trying to evaluate my feelings more on the subject. I want to disagree with her, but I think I might be too close to the issue, so I am trying to get some other opinions. While I am certainly against paying for porn (I think it funds a morally bankrupt industry), I don't know how much I am against the idea of viewing porn. And I know in a relationship the real boundary is whatever gets set up between you and your partner, but I am asking more from a general society/individual viewpoint...

[xrodolfox]

I think that the problems posed with porn often stem from the economic aspect of it.

I don't think there is anything wrong at all with consenting people filming sexual activities for art or pleasure. If you are your GF film your sexual activities and view them later, what would be the problem?

As far as I can see this issue, it is only when sex media is mixed with capitalism and profit and ownership and workers and owners that porn gets tied in with the myriad other problems out there.

IMO, sex for pleasure should certainly a part of any healthy society, especially a "civilized" society. Sexual art and media, from games, video, literature, pictures, paintings, etc., should be a freely accessed part of that. IMO it is when it is produced for profit that sexuality gets tied in with exploitation and oppression of humans including perpetuating binary sexual roles and myths.

But that's adding problems where they don't always exist. Those same problems go when engaging capitalism in any marginal activity, especially activities that are about identity or pleasure. If my partner freely sent me a sexual photo or video that was wanted by me, it would be "porn". I find it impossible to find anything wrong with that.

[Konstantin]

Watching it. Good, neutral, or bad? (for the individual, society, etc.)

Bad.

Not because sexuality is bad, but it tends to get inappropraite. I suppose I'm the wrong person to ask because I've known a few male friends who aren't getting much female contact use porn instead, and I just don't get it. Why watch someone else getting what you're missing out on?

I've heard people talk about film plots, magazines etc. and most porn seems to be about an aspect of sexuality rather than sexuality itself. There seems to be a lot about power, and humiliation seems to crop up a lot. I suppose that ties in with xRodolfox's post about capitalism ruining it all. And what's all this about dressing up adult women as schoolgirls?!

In summary it could be something I have no concerns about but just no interest in, but I get the impression most of it dips into areas I'm pretty uncomfortable with.

[veganlifter]

it is only when sex media is mixed with capitalism and profit and ownership and workers and owners that porn gets tied in with the myriad other problems out there.

I completely agree with this. Just out of interest has anyone heard of the organisation in the link below? It is an environmental porn group that uses sexuality to bring awareness to the distruction of nature. Personally I find the project a bit hippy / fluffy and believe there are far more effective forms of campaigning however I do agree with some of their philosophy and have no moral dilemas about the project.

"By showing the beauty of love, nudity and real sexual adventures - we wish to direct attention to, and collect money for threatened nature. Sex is often shown to attract us to buy all kind of bullshit products and ideas, so why not for a good cause? We think it is important to show a more liberal relationship to our bodies, as a contrast to the suppressed world we live inOur bodies, sexuality and nature are under suppression. FFF wants to reclaim nature & sexuality and show a sex positive culture. We need pleasure, not power! Masturbation does NOT lead to hell! Body and sexual suppression is the cause of many problems in our world. If we would make more love, maybe we would destroy less? Many times the rulers who are making moral issues against naked bodies and sex are the same fuckers making war and destroying our planet. We wish to get closer to nature by celebrating love and liberty. Fuck for forest or be nude for nature. You have it all, and nature needs our love."

http://www.fuckforforest.com/en/about.html

[Fallen_Horse]

I like the discussion but it wasn't quite what I was thinking of!

My question is more in relation to the act of viewing porn as a psychological/social/mental/moral/ethical activity. My problem is that I can't seem to find a positive result of watching porn, other than the personal satisfaction of lust. And quite frankly, that's not a great reason when compared to the detrimental effects of the porn.

[xrodolfox]

Hmm?
What do you think are the detrimental effects of watching porn? Do the negative effects apply to all porn?

Also, the positive effects could depend on the particular way to consume porn. Watching porn alone to aid in masturbation seems less positive than watching a mutually exciting video with your partner, for example.

I think that the negative and positive effects all depend on what porn, and what context. Some books and literature is porn, and that certainly has different effects than video. Heck, some "classical art", especially things like erotic works from the Renaissance was considered "porn" when it was made.

I do think that porn can have very detrimental effects, as can any media, especially ones that convey sexuality or values, but that just like other media, they all depend on the context and consumption.

So that means I have questions about your particular frame for consumption. Perhaps all porn in that frame/context *is* ripe for problems.

[Fallen_Horse]

Good questions. I am referring to the situation of watching porn alone, without your partner, and watching porn of other people having sex (professional videos). My concern is that that kind of viewing strengthens the natural male response to visual stimuli, without the more elevated aspects, such as emotional connection and commitment. For example, a guy who watches porn, would he be more likely to be lustful towards other women in his daily life, or would he be less? I believe more, because the act of viewing porn simply reinforces the response of lust without a relationship. Maybe others disagree, but I think that sex should only happen in a partnership where the couple has developed emotional and mental attachments to each other, AKA commitment. Porn is just the opposite of this, so my concern is that viewing it leads to a 'lack of commitment' mindset.

Also there are various other assorted problems associated with (most) porn, such as loss of respect for women, STDs for actors, etc., but my concern is mostly personal.

I look at it this way. Other expressions of the 'deadly sin's (greed, wrath, gluttony, etc.) are all looked down upon, but it seems to me that most people ignore lust, which is equally on the list. Whether or not you are a Christian, the 'sin' of lust is counted across many cultures and religions, so it's not isolated to Jesus followers. It is obvious enough that lust is not something to be nurtured, and I believe that porn nurtures those feelings, so that's my concern.

[xrodolfox]

Now that you place what you wrote in context, I think it makes more sense the unsatisfactory nature of the responses.

I think there are a few studies on men watching porn alone and their affects on their sexuality, their likelihood to cheat on their spouse, etc.. Perhaps you can look through those. From what I remember, watching porn didn't actually cause men to view women as sex objects 24-7, but often it was a way in which to let out sexual tension without impacting their relationships.

However, regardless of what the studies say, what you experience yourself is much more important. There is no need to make blanket rules or theories about what other people experience in the bedroom and when watching porn when what is really important is what happens in your bedroom. Sexual life should really not be about keeping up (or down) with the Joneses.

For example, my wife and I have many friends who are in long-term, committed poly amorous relationships. IMO, poly relationships can be healthy, happy, ethical romantic relationships. However, that doesn't mean that they are for me. I know myself, and I know my limits, and right now, and in the forseeable future, I am not emotionally fine with poly relationships as my relationships.

Same with porn. I find porn on it's basis ethical, but I don't watch much, just as I find spicy food intriguing, but I don't eat much.

If you find porn to disrupt your life, then it matters very little that the Jones down the street watch porn alone every night, and then ravishes her partner every morning in a fullfilling sexual life; or that Smith down the way watches porn every two days and finds himself lusting after everything with a pulse and has a tepid un-torrid affair and never wants to have sex with his wistfully disinterested partner.

If you find yourself having problems with lust, then don't watch porn. Perhaps the problem isn't the media, perhaps the problem is you, and the sooner you address it, the sooner you'll be free and on your way to happy satisfaction.

[veganlifter]

I think if watching porn becomes compulsive / obsessive it is obviously bad, however the same could be said of anything. I don’t think porn by its nature is necessarily a negative device and its effect depends on a whole myriad of factors. I would argue that if watching porn becomes obsessive this is mealy a symptom of some deeper underlying problem.

As for saying that watching porn makes an individual behave in a certain way towards people I think this is quite a simplistic way of viewing things. This would depend heavily on the individual and their motivations, expectations associated with the porn watching in the first place. Eqally you could ask if watching a violent movie make a well balanced person become more violent towards other people?

I am also intrigued where you say that “I think that sex should only happen in a partnership where the couple has developed emotional and mental attachments to each other” Just wonder why you feel this way? Surely if you have two consenting adults who are happy to have sex without emotional attachment, why is this wrong?

Also when I read discussions relating to pornography I always hear feminist arguments about the exploitation of women in porn, although nobody ever talks about gay porn?

[Fallen_Horse]

Now that you place what you wrote in context, I think it makes more sense the unsatisfactory nature of the responses.

I think there are a few studies on men watching porn alone and their affects on their sexuality, their likelihood to cheat on their spouse, etc.. Perhaps you can look through those. From what I remember, watching porn didn't actually cause men to view women as sex objects 24-7, but often it was a way in which to let out sexual tension without impacting their relationships.

However, regardless of what the studies say, what you experience yourself is much more important. There is no need to make blanket rules or theories about what other people experience in the bedroom and when watching porn when what is really important is what happens in your bedroom. Sexual life should really not be about keeping up (or down) with the Joneses.

For example, my wife and I have many friends who are in long-term, committed poly amorous relationships. IMO, poly relationships can be healthy, happy, ethical romantic relationships. However, that doesn't mean that they are for me. I know myself, and I know my limits, and right now, and in the forseeable future, I am not emotionally fine with poly relationships as my relationships.

Same with porn. I find porn on it's basis ethical, but I don't watch much, just as I find spicy food intriguing, but I don't eat much.

If you find porn to disrupt your life, then it matters very little that the Jones down the street watch porn alone every night, and then ravishes her partner every morning in a fullfilling sexual life; or that Smith down the way watches porn every two days and finds himself lusting after everything with a pulse and has a tepid un-torrid affair and never wants to have sex with his wistfully disinterested partner.

If you find yourself having problems with lust, then don't watch porn. Perhaps the problem isn't the media, perhaps the problem is you, and the sooner you address it, the sooner you'll be free and on your way to happy satisfaction.

Good post, thanks! I sense some tacit implications on my character?

I think if watching porn becomes compulsive / obsessive it is obviously bad, however the same could be said of anything. I don’t think porn by its nature is necessarily a negative device and its effect depends on a whole myriad of factors. I would argue that if watching porn becomes obsessive this is mealy a symptom of some deeper underlying problem.

As for saying that watching porn makes an individual behave in a certain way towards people I think this is quite a simplistic way of viewing things. This would depend heavily on the individual and their motivations, expectations associated with the porn watching in the first place. Eqally you could ask if watching a violent movie make a well balanced person become more violent towards other people?

I am also intrigued where you say that “I think that sex should only happen in a partnership where the couple has developed emotional and mental attachments to each other” Just wonder why you feel this way? Surely if you have two consenting adults who are happy to have sex without emotional attachment, why is this wrong?

Also when I read discussions relating to pornography I always hear feminist arguments about the exploitation of women in porn, although nobody ever talks about gay porn?

Agreed on most parts, although studies have shown that viewing violent media does make people more antisocial, so I feel that for many people it is probably the same with porn.

Also, the only reason I say people shouldn't have random sex is because STD's are spreading rapidly enough as it is, and sex with multiple people also multiplies your chances of getting an STD. Now, if that's a risk you are willing to take, that would be ok, except that then you become a drain on the healthcare system when you want/require treatment for your condition. So unless these two consenting people are SURE that they each don't have an STD, then I would say that sex is a no-no.

[xrodolfox]

If you find yourself having problems with lust, then don't watch porn. Perhaps the problem isn't the media, perhaps the problem is you, and the sooner you address it, the sooner you'll be free and on your way to happy satisfaction.

Good post, thanks! I sense some tacit implications on my character?

To be clear, I'm not at all attacking your character. You have quite a lot of character to address this in the open in the first place. That takes guts. I've never had the courage to address my issues like this publicly. I'm too cowardly in that department. You get kudos from me. You are likely to be end up happier than folks like me who just don't talk about it.

But if you *are* going to be happy, you might as well do it 100% and make sure that the real problem you are addressing are you problems. If it in fact is the nature of the media itself, then so be it... but from what you've written, I suspect that it is the nature of your interaction with pornographic media that is the real issue.

[Fallen_Horse]

To be clear, I'm not at all attacking your character. You have quite a lot of character to address this in the open in the first place. That takes guts. I've never had the courage to address my issues like this publicly. I'm too cowardly in that department. You get kudos from me. You are likely to be end up happier than folks like me who just don't talk about it.

But if you *are* going to be happy, you might as well do it 100% and make sure that the real problem you are addressing are you problems. If it in fact is the nature of the media itself, then so be it... but from what you've written, I suspect that it is the nature of your interaction with pornographic media that is the real issue.

Well thank you for the support, but honestly I am just trying to discover a moral/ethical framework about the topic, whereas before I simply ignored the philosophical issue. I personally don't feel like a 'bad' person for watching porn (although some kinds are certainly less 'moral' than others), but I wonder in myself how much it affects my daily outlook. I mean, if watching 10 minutes of news a day will affect your outlook on the world, why wouldn't 10 minutes of porn? And my concern is that '10 minute effect', and what implications it might have for my subconscious/unconscious/psyche. Also the idea of me watching porn makes my girlfriend insecure, but that could be another topic entirely.

[Hiking Fox]

Kind of a weird one, this. On the one hand, I really like looking at cocks and feel that people who view this as morally wrong in some way are prudes.

On the other hand, turning lust into a commodity makes us less human.

I wouldn't have a problem with a website or magazine in which people submit erotic photos or films of themselves and view those of other people. I feel less comfortable about people being paid to make porn, and coming to depend on the money.

I had an ex boyfriend who felt he wasn't satisfying me, even though I never said or did anything to give that impression. Turns out he was measuring his "performance" and penis size against that of men he'd seen in porn films and he thought that a woman who is enjoying sex should be writhing around and grunting in a really dramatic way. I can't help thinking that porn must make a lot of people very insecure.