Egg dilemma?

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Egg dilemma?

Postby veganlifter » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:58 pm

My choice to be “vegan” is purely ethical and has nothing to do with health. For me veganism is about making a conscious choice to refrain from actions that cause others to suffer. The actual dictionary definition has almost no significance to me as it is possible to take technical definitions to the ridiculous while ignoring philosophical reasoning. So this brings me on to the topic of eggs. I am well aware of the horrors involved with commercial egg production; however that is something I would never support. I currently get my eggs from a friend who has a number of rescued ex battery hens. The hens live a completely free range life and are well cared for. In this situation I ask what is morally wrong with eating the eggs from these birds?

I would be interested to hear people’s views on this.
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby Talyn » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:04 pm

For me there is no dilemma at all.

I don't consider eggs to be food. So I don't eat them.

An egg belongs to the mother of the egg. We don't have the right to take it.
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby soniczip » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:16 pm

Talyn wrote:For me there is no dilemma at all.

I don't consider eggs to be food. So I don't eat them.

An egg belongs to the mother of the egg. We don't have the right to take it.

same for me
i'm focusing on some kind of stuff
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby veganlifter » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:25 pm

An egg belongs to the mother of the egg. We don't have the right to take it.


I don’t understand what you mean about taking the eggs. If they are not collected they would just rot. These are all rescued ex battery hens so whether you like it or not they continue to lay frequently.
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby xrodolfox » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:57 pm

veganlifter wrote:
An egg belongs to the mother of the egg. We don't have the right to take it.


I don’t understand what you mean about taking the eggs. If they are not collected they would just rot. These are all rescued ex battery hens so whether you like it or not they continue to lay frequently.


Often, eggs that are left to "rot" are eaten by the hens themselves. Creating an egg expends a lot of energy and minerals, and those fallow eggs can be a great source of vitamins for the hens that lay eggs... not to mention, some hens do not even lay eggs unless they have a male rooster around (that's why often one male is allowed to exist in egg farms).

Thus, if a hen does lay an egg, while the hen doesn't consider things to be "property", I certain consider her work to be own. If she wishes to consume her own eggs, then I think it is not substantiated that I take her eggs. If she wants to let them rot, there is no need for me to take the eggs other than to move them to the garbage.

soniczip wrote:
Talyn wrote:For me there is no dilemma at all.

I don't consider eggs to be food. So I don't eat them.

An egg belongs to the mother of the egg. We don't have the right to take it.

same for me


Same for me.
Eggs are not food.
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby veganlifter » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:49 pm

I understand what you are saying about hens eating their own eggs, but how common is it? I have seen it in other birds but I thought it normally occurs almost as soon as they lay? I have looked after my friends hens while he was on holiday once and they tend to lay all over the place. I have found eggs in the weirdest places and certainly in places where hens could not retrieve them if they wanted to. Even you say that you would move eggs to the trash rather than have them rotting around the place, so why not eat them?

Apart from eating these eggs I don’t consume any other animal product. I was vegetarian for 10 years and finally gave up dairy 5 years ago. I generally have an open mind to this, and can honestly say I don’t feel I am contributing to any suffering by my actions, although I am open to change if anyone can enlighten me.
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby baldy » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:55 pm

The other point is that by eating eggs and calling yourself vegan (or people call you vegan), you put across the idea that the vegan diet is not sufficient.
So people think its not possible to be vegan.

It maybe ethical and you can justify it to yourself, but it doesn't help the vegan greater good (or anyone in fact).
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby xrodolfox » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:02 pm

I am not going to try and convince you.

What I know is that my veganism is done for multiple reasons. Primary reason: Ethics. But for me, veganism is also a public act; thus it is political. I am concerned more about the freeing of all animals than just about my "purity", however, I think that classifying animal products as "not food" is part of freeing all animals.

The activity of avoiding animal products only does minor change to the marketplace, but calling myself a vegan and being consistent in my activity of avoiding all animal products is a political action which helps change culture when I engage culture. It is similar to my work (union organizing) when I am an organizer 100% of the time. If I do something that is anti-solidarity in my spare time, it will affect my work as an organizer when I am paid for it. Consuming unneeded eggs, or any other animal product that would otherwise go to the garbage (a dead human, uneaten animal flesh in a restaurant dumpster, non-human roadkill, etc.) might not harm anyone, but it is a political act to not do it. Avoiding animal products makes a statement that animals are not for human food or abuse. Public and community reactions aren't based on reason, and the slippery slope of an otherwise ethical vegan eating "special eggs" makes it "OK" for others to simply eat eggs.

You and I do not need eggs to thrive, just as you and I don't need to eat roadkill, or dead relatives, or pets, to thrive. We don't eat dead humans to be efficient, even though there would be no harm to anyone from eating a dead relative (as long as the flesh is cooked thoroughly and spinal/brain tissue were avoided), but there is no argument about eating dead humans because otherwise it would go to waste in a ritual for the dead. As far as I am concerned, dead humans are not for eating, just as roadkill, or a slaughtered farm animal aren't food. The same goes for cow milk, human breast milk not given voluntarily, eggs (of any animal), or anything not explicitly given to me that I do not need to thrive.

It would be different if you needed the eggs to thrive. If I am freezing to death, then what I "need" is different, and I might use the skin of a naturally expired animal to survive. Heck, I wouldn't blame someone for using human skin in such a situation. It would be gross and macabre, but ethically fine with me. However, we are in no such situation 99.99999~% of the time, and thus, using animal flesh which would otherwise go to "waste" is politically inconsistent with veganism for me. The public act of using animal flesh as clothing is anti-thetical to animal liberation.

That's why even if eggs go to the waste basket, they are not food to me. Unless you are starving and near death, and there is nothing else to eat, where pica seems like a good idea, then eggs are not food. From your posts, it just seems like you want license to eat eggs for recreation, pleasure, when they are not needed at all nutritionally.

That license, you will not get from me. Eggs are not food.
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby Konstantin » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:22 pm

If you didn't eat them, could they not find their way to someone who would otherwise buy commercial eggs?

Part of the motivation for me to be vegan is to live without harming animals. Another part is to prove that you can live better as a vegan than as a an eater on animal produce. It's a shame that you could do the second, but currently aren't. If we're going to change the habits of society, some of us need to stand up and say 'I'm vegan, I'm healthy fit and strong, and look damn good in just my underwear'.

This dilemma came up for me a few months ago when we were rehoming former laying hens that were to be either killed or rehomed. A lot of people took them so they could get free eggs. I was happy with that, as it meant the chickens got a home, people bought less commercial eggs, and hopefully made the link between egg and animal a bit better.

If you're all ready to go vegan, it's a different story IMO. Be vegan, be a good one and don't eat menstrual discharge.
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby thestoatyone » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:46 pm

My take: By eating eggs you are saying that living off plants is insufficient. Therefore people will carry on funding egg farms that kill off all but a small amount of the male chicks. So I don't

I don't think eating the free-range hens eggs is a bad act per-se, but it's not good animal advocacy. After all their brothers have had to be killed for them to have got to this stage.

That came across as more preachy than I'd hope and it's your call, but I'm going to go without eggs ta.
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby loveliberate » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:05 am

No need, no desire and it isnt helping the animals/veganism - so better just to to skip it eh?

Oh yeah: Welcome to the VF! :D
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby baldy » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:37 am

xrodolfox wrote:The activity of avoiding animal products only does minor change to the marketplace, but calling myself a vegan and being consistent in my activity of avoiding all animal products is a political action which helps change culture when I engage culture.

Honestly xrodolfox I love your work, you manage to articulate things so well, you should write a book!
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby Konstantin » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:32 am

loveliberate wrote:Oh yeah: Welcome to the VF! :D



Yes indeedy welcome on board. Hope we haven't come down heavy and pissed you off cos no one means to do that! :) :)
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby JP » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:48 am

baldy wrote:
xrodolfox wrote:The activity of avoiding animal products only does minor change to the marketplace, but calling myself a vegan and being consistent in my activity of avoiding all animal products is a political action which helps change culture when I engage culture.

Honestly xrodolfox I love your work, you manage to articulate things so well, you should write a book!


there is a book thats missing!

mate, its not a big deal in my opinion, doesnt make any difference one way or another, but then again, individual choices on their own rarely do - its when its collective together with a bigger movement when it makes an impact. Thats why i dont eat roadkill, spilled milk, animal products from a dumpster, or eggs laid by random birds - even if eating those would not contribute to any suffering.

But i dont have any desire either though, like many said, have reached the point where i stop seeing animal products as food - much like average person doesnt see human bits and bobs as food.
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Re: Egg dilemma?

Postby xrodolfox » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:53 pm

JP wrote:
baldy wrote:
xrodolfox wrote:The activity of avoiding animal products only does minor change to the marketplace, but calling myself a vegan and being consistent in my activity of avoiding all animal products is a political action which helps change culture when I engage culture.

Honestly xrodolfox I love your work, you manage to articulate things so well, you should write a book!


there is a book thats missing!


Thanks.

I wish I could do it.
My one hangup with mental health seems to come when I have to write. That's why I'm still so short on my Master's Thesis. I love classes. I love reading. I love talking. I love responding online... but I just can't seem to write papers. Ugh.

Once I solve that, believe you me. It'll be a book a friggin' week, with lots of action in between.

In the end, when living in a social world, a lot of what we do that has value is symbolic. Avoiding animal products for your own ethics is ultimately a self-serving symbolic act. The effects on the market are marginal. However, when that personal ethics goes public, then public acts become symbolic. That's why to me, being vegan is quite different than secretly avoiding animal products. Veganism, at it's core is about actual real change. To me, veganism is really about every one of the worst fears of the meat industry. It isn't apologetic or comfortable. Being vegan and public and thriving, just by existence in the public sphere, is a direct threat to eating and using animals recreationally or for pleasure, and that's why meat-eaters get so angry at us. That's why just being vegan in public causes so much vitriol. By existence PUBLICLY, we challenge their habits and culture.

That's why for me, it is clear that veganism isn't just a secret practice between me and my ethics. For me my veganism is also about the public symbolism of avoiding animal products completely and thriving; that is a threat to the culture of eating and using animals much more than my economic boycott of animal products can do. That's why even "free" items that aren't vegan I still avoid. The market isn't going to solve animal enslavement. We need to do that work of changing the culture ourselves, and that's not going to happen in secret.
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