My first ever 10k

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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby xrodolfox » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:51 pm

Thanks Hal.

My target should eventually be around 6-min miles. I've done that fast after a few mile warmup, once or twice, for about 500yds or so...

Right now, I'd be thrilled with regular 7-min miles in a 5k race.
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby KjKranz » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:07 am

Konstantin wrote:
xrodolfox wrote:How exactly do I do this? I've started doing intervals with running, to some success. I like intervals more than regular running. I don't know what to focus on, though, and i still don't really know how to just got faster, even for short runs. Ideas?


Basically just run shorter distances, faster. I subscribe the Greta Weitz pholisophy that shorter intervals should be done full speed, longer ones should be done at target race speed, with a shorter rest. So, if I was tagretting a HM in 1:45, which is an 8 minute mile I might do:
4 x 1 mile, each mile 8 min, with a 75 s rest.
8 x 800m, each 4min, 45s rest
20 x 100m at full speed off a 40s rest, followed by
10 x 200m full speed off a 1:10 rest.
Maybe also some 8x800s at full speed off a 3 min rest.
Include some hill sprints. I just set my watch to go off every minute and do 1 min sprint uphill then take 2 mins to jog back down to the start, 10 reps.

I listed some other ideas on my training log:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16086&start=15

And recently my training log has been almost all intervals so you might wanna look at that.



I actually have been doing the opposite and have dropped my speed at a HR of 155 beats per minute from a 7:58 pace to a 7:00 pace for my five mile aerobic tests (after a 3 mile warm up) in the last 7 months.

http://www.runningonthewhiteline.com/20 ... tests.html

Low heart rate training may be more beneficial since it will not leave you so spent that it will start to effect your swimming and cycling.

Just throwing that out there. I tried the whole no pain no gain interval fast high intensity thing, and don't ever see myself going back.
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby Konstantin » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:21 am

I'm sure that has a place KJKrantz and agree that you have to find what works for you, as everyone is different. A recent, very successful addition to my plan has been that sort of tempo run, although my feeling is that is has to come after some work on the ability to run fast.

Xrodolfox, do you think a priority is to find a higher gear, or to find the ability to maintain speed for a longer time? Maybe a difficult question to answer, but it may help differentiate between the slower longer approach and shorter intervals. I think you need to try some of these different approaches and use them to develop your own approach.

Intervals weren't really a part of endurance running training before Zatopec in the late 1940s. He got criticised for them because it seemed daft for a marathon runner to be running 100 metres. He said he needed to learn to run fast, and those short intervals were the way to do it. By the end of 1948 he was world champion at every distance from 5k to marathon, so I reckon it worked.
You can see my training log if you're really bored: [url]www.veganfitness.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16086&start=360[/url]
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby xrodolfox » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:24 pm

KjKranz wrote:
Konstantin wrote:
xrodolfox wrote:How exactly do I do this? I've started doing intervals with running, to some success. I like intervals more than regular running.

Basically just run shorter distances, faster.


I actually have been doing the opposite and have dropped my speed at a HR of 155 beats per minute from a 7:58 pace to a 7:00 pace for my five mile aerobic tests (after a 3 mile warm up) in the last 7 months.

http://www.runningonthewhiteline.com/20 ... tests.html

Low heart rate training may be more beneficial since it will not leave you so spent that it will start to effect your swimming and cycling.

Just throwing that out there. I tried the whole no pain no gain interval fast high intensity thing, and don't ever see myself going back.


A few good friends have done this sort of training to great success. Afterall, the vegan triathlete Dave Scott did this sort of training to success.

I've tried it, but what I think I need right now, is a "higher gear" when running. That approach, however, is what might work best for my cycling, since I can already go quite fast. There I need to be able to maintain 90% effort for a long time. I can't even get to 90% effort in a run.

Konstantin wrote:Xrodolfox, do you think a priority is to find a higher gear, or to find the ability to maintain speed for a longer time?


I think what I need right now is a higher gear. *I think.*

I'm such a poor runner, well below what my aerobic threshold is, that anything that will 1) improve technique and 2) give me another "gear" would be great. Once I get those two, I think working on keeping my heartrate from being a limiting factor would be awesome. When swimming, my HR is not much of a factor, but it is when I bike. With my poor running, HR doesn't even top out, excepting hills.

I wish I had a running friend to walk me (or run me) through some of these paces. The few guys I know who do intervals do it when I am not available, or worst of all, a friend does it in secret (from me!) because he is afraid I'll beat him since I have him beat in the swim and can sometimes keep up on the bike, but get destroyed-pummelled by him in the run. This is a guy, same age as me, who is a CEO of a car parts supplier, makes $1mil+/year, has won enough local races to race for free, and he's sneaking in his interval runs so that I don't copy him. Grrrr. One of these days, I'll beat him.
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby Konstantin » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:22 pm

xrodolfox wrote:I think what I need right now is a higher gear. *I think.*


Then do some short intervals. Try the classic:
20 x 100m off a 30 s rest followed by 10 x 200m off a 200m rest. That will work your technique really hard and the next day you'll feel it. Also tag some tabatas on the end of your training, and do the 10 x 1 min hillsprints.

xrodolfox wrote:I wish I had a running friend to walk me (or run me) through some of these paces. The few guys I know who do intervals do it when I am not available, or worst of all, a friend does it in secret (from me!) because he is afraid I'll beat him since I have him beat in the swim and can sometimes keep up on the bike, but get destroyed-pummelled by him in the run. This is a guy, same age as me, who is a CEO of a car parts supplier, makes $1mil+/year, has won enough local races to race for free, and he's sneaking in his interval runs so that I don't copy him. Grrrr. One of these days, I'll beat him.


IMHO intervals are great to do alone. That way you can tailor the rest periods and distance perfectly. Some people find motivation difficult too and like to have someone to chase, but if you can run hard on your own, that's great.

I totally understand your friend's secrecy. When you have something effective and train with friends, you know that at some point you'll want to beat those friends. I suppose this doesn't extend to the benefits of veganism though.
You can see my training log if you're really bored: [url]www.veganfitness.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16086&start=360[/url]
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby Mr. Cleetus » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:04 pm

Intervals are great and if you are to ever get sub 40 in a tri, you will very likely need them. However, I suspect, that @ 50mins/10km what you need right now is just more running. Consistent running. I have no idea what your running background is or how many miles you have put in and are putting in - however ( :P ) It is very likely that if you can increase your frequency of running sessions and do that for an extended period of times (months++) you will make huge gains in your running performance. Once you are there I think you will then see the speed gains from intervals. I think there is not anything wrong with adding in the intervals right now but they should not be done at the cost of reducing your overall run training load. The runs don't need to be long runs, you just really need to be consistent with it - so I am not talking about running crazy miles. How many times per week are you running now and how long have you been doing that?

I fully expect a "no way" response from you :P
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby KjKranz » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:54 am

Speedwork is the icing on the cake, and you don't have the cake(base mileage) yet.
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby xrodolfox » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:57 am

Yeah. I hate hate hate running, so I avoid it.
Intervals, at least, are fun, partially because I like flirting with that feeling of falling over due to pushing my heart/lungs to the limit.

So in final, I run about 15 miles total, on the weeks when I run, and about 4 or 5 miles the other weeks, and that's only ever other week. I put in 10 to 20 miles of biking in a day, without fail, and i swim 4km every two days without fail.

So of course I need a base. But why the heck is running so boring and terribly unfun. I only do it because I feel like I want to win, and that's rarely good enough reason to do any exercise.

I swim because I love the feeling of swimming. I bike because I love the wind in my hair. I love that feeling of pushing my body to the limit when I bike/swim, but I rarely get that with running. WIth running, I just feel discomfort and annoyance and I rarely get a feeling like I'm pushing myself anywhere. My technique's bad, and instead I most often feel pain or discomfort in my shoulders, ankles, calves, back, or knees. Nothing even approaches that in biking or swimming. There I feel my lungs/heart and it feels great.

Perhaps the real question is how to make running feel not so darn annoying and instead something that's enjoyable that I might actually look forward to doing, like swimming or biking. That's part of the reason I'm trying out intervals with running: intervals are more fun than mileage.
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby KjKranz » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:29 pm

That's so weird, since I'm the total opposite. I even started off as a cyclist. I was fairly good at just enjoying the ride.

However I wanted more, so decided to train for triathlons. Before triathlon training, I had not swam laps since I was in swimming lessons as a young child and could not make it down the full length of the pool, got 3/4th the way and hung on the edge crying while the instructor asked me if I wanted to keep swimming. I said no.

Now I'm full circle and have pretty much stopped swimming. If I do another tri, it's going to be an Ironman or Ultra IM and the cost to benefit analysis was not in swim training's favor :p I'll go for a ride once in a while.

But, for some reason, I can just go out and run. I ran 15 miles two days ago and it felt like a half hour. Sometimes I take it all in, sometimes I do meditative running. But for some reason swimming and even cycling in most instances, anything over an hour is less then enjoyable :p
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby Konstantin » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:48 pm

You have to do this thing because you enjoy it, and whether you're copeting, getting healthy or whatever, sport has to have intrisic benefits. Which means, Xrodolfox, you have to ask yourself whether it's worth working hard at running if you really hate it.

My angle is this: I have natural strength more than mobility, but I'm buggered if I'm pursuing it too much. With minimal strength training I place well on the chin up table and can lift OK, yet despite all the running training, I still get breezed past by older and less committed runners. Short legs and stocky build together with more upper than lower body strength doesn't make for a good endurance runner.

But I'm not motivated to stand in a gym with posers and dance music (not all gym users are posers, but my gym is full of them). I want to be outside, places like this:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=15628&hilit=running+on+dartmoor

Getting up early to go to the gym would be a chore, but the dark roads and hills are fine for me at 6:00 on Saturday morning.

So I suppose that's the question for you Xrodolfox. Are you going to be able to make yourself like running, will you see it as a neccesary evil, or just concentrate on the bike and water?
You can see my training log if you're really bored: [url]www.veganfitness.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16086&start=360[/url]
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby xrodolfox » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:14 pm

The thing is that I know I reason I hate running.

I hate running because I do not have good technique, and thus my efforts are thwarted when I loose focus, which is often. I have to THINK about running... at least I do now.

I never went barefoot, not even indoors, until last year. I heal strike even when barefoot on concrete. Thus, until three years ago, I couldn't do more than 3 miles without having severe knee pain. Running is associated with skeletal pain rather than muscular or cardio pain.

With swimming, I feel like I'm flying. I love that feeling more than anything. That's why I crave the pool, and I could do laps for hours and hours if I had the time. Intervals, distance, IM, all of it. Biking is similar, and almost as awesome. I love bike commuting, and unless I hit "the wall", I love it. I love being on my bike and breezing past cars and few things beat the feeling of raw speed.

But running is slow. It hurts my bones. There's no floating freedom. I barely get my lungs a workout like with swimming and holding a streamline just before popping out.

I know I can at least like running. I'm not giving up on it that easy. I've liked tiny bits of running, like intervals, but I'm not really getting mileage in because my joints/bones hurt. Not my muscles, but my knee or the bones between my feet, or other places get hurting after more than a few miles. I can't really control by breath, and last time I ran a while, I hurt my back. My last race, my shoulders were tight as hell. I don't get any of that from swimming of biking.

I am not going to give up on running that easy. I have long legs. I have a strong heart/lungs. I have strong legs, and I have stamina. I can learn technique.

If it doesn't work, I'll eventually give up on running and just enjoy being top 3 in 90% of my races until the run, when I get dropped by runners. Small improvements, however, could net huge results, and as I tell my kids: I'm not giving up and I'm going to have to know that I gave it my all.

I haven't given it my all.

This was my first running race. I hated it. But I learned a lot.

1) I still hate running
2) I have a lot to improve
3) I need to do more running
4) I don't want to do more running because it is a chore and not fun
5) thus.... I need to find out how to make running productive and fun.
"The worker has the right to leave his boss, but can she do it? And if she does quit him, is it in order to lead a free life; where she will have no master but herself? No, she leaves to sell herself to another employer. She's driven by the same hunger. Thus the worker's liberty is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means of realization; an utter falsehood."
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby xrodolfox » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:18 pm

PS. if any of you want a ringer for the swim, call me up.

If I only did the swim, I can guarantee you a top 2 finish in a triathlon leg of the swim in just about any local race. I love the swim, and I so wish it was longer. If there were only aqua-bikes around here....
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby KjKranz » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:48 pm

I have a good perspective on how to improve technique when running. I can look back when I ran in shoes and compare it to now, 3100 miles later, in Vibrams. Minimal shoes sort of force you to adapt a smoother and more efficient stride. I am not an advocate for barefoot running however. People are amazed I'm running so much in shoes with no cushion. But on the contrary, my body is taking less of a beating now since I can feel the ground and my body's reaction to it better. Simpy run better and smarter. And honestly slowing down and doing LSD running has been a big improvement as well.
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby KjKranz » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:44 am

Ok Konstantin. Just for you, today I did some interval work.

17 x 1 mile on an 8:45 pace with no rest between reps

:lol:
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Re: My first ever 10k

Postby xrodolfox » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:52 pm

^ Oh jeesh.
;)

I almost exclusively train in Vibrams, occasionally doing some barefoot or shod running. But. You know. My mileage is extremely low. Since Monday: this week's total running: ZERO. This week's swimming: 12km. This week's cycling: 100km. And I'm still hitting the pool in a few hours and cycling home. No plans for running though.

Shit. I'm willing to try anything. Intervals make it somewhat fun, but it is HARD to do intervals alone. Those things need camaraderie to get done right. LSD? 17 miles? Yikes. That sounds tough to do when I've got kids/wife at home. I don't have that sort of time.
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