Ectomorph workout

[Vege-Dan]

Hi There,

My new year's resolution is to start working out again, but I'm an ectomorph. I have two very different routines, both claiming to be the best for an ectomorph.

From http://bit.ly/g4LRMK :

Ectomorph Workout Routine:
Pull ups/ Chin ups 4×12
Dips 4 x 12
Deadlifts or Squats 4 x 12
Pendlay Rows 4 x 12
Flat Bench Press 4 x 12
Clean and Press 4 x 12

- they recommend doing these same excercises 3 times per week. I'm dubious as I thought that each muscle group needs about a week of rest to recover and grow before being worked again. Or is one or two days of rest ok? To be honest, I'd probably do this twice a week anyway - what do you think?

And from http://bit.ly/arc3z :

Monday: Pectorals and Triceps

* Squat 3x6
* Bench Press: 3x6
* Close Grip Bench: 2x8
* Incline/Decline Bench: 3x8
* Dumbbell Fly: 3x10
* Skull Crusher / Cable Pull Down: 3x8
* Calf Extension: 3x15
* Standing Barbell Wrist Curl: 3x10

Wednesday: Deltoids, Biceps, and Trapezius

* Barbell Lunge: 3x8 (4 on each leg)
* Incline Dumbbell Curl: 3x10
* Preacher Curl: 3x8
* Shrugs: 3x8
* Upright Row: 3x8
* Shoulder Press: 3x8
* Incline Sit Up: 3x15
* Calf Extension: 3x15
* Standing Barbell Wrist Curl: 3x10

Friday: Lats, Hamstrings, and Spinal Erectors

* Squat: 3x6
* Chin Ups: 3xfailure
* Seated Row: 3x8
* Dumbbell/Barbell Row: 3x8 (8 on each arm)
* Any Oblique Exercise: 3x15
* Hyperextension: 3x15
* Good Morning: 3x6
* Deadlift: 3x5
* Calf Extension: 3x15
* Standing Barbell Wrist Curl: 3x10

Now this one seems more like what I'm used to doing (I've been through phases of working out a number of times - usually lasting about 6 months.) Last year I followed a similar routine to this and made some reasonable gains.

So which of these do people think I should follow?

Thanks,
Dan

[hardcore iv]

Go with the first one and eat more. IMO that second routine is overkill unless you are preparing for the Mr. Olympia.

Maybe lower the reps to a max of 8 instead of 12 for the main lifts. If you are worried about your recovery you could split that routine into a push/pull where you bench, C+P and dip on mon and fri and chin, deadlift and row on wednesday and flip those workout days around every week. e.g.:

Week 1
monday - push
wednesday - pull
friday - push

Week 2
monday - pull
wednesday - push
friday - pull

[Vege-Dan]

Or, I've just found this... http://bit.ly/eS5DjD :

"This routine follows a 2-day split and works your entire body:

Monday

* Squat
* Bench Press

Friday

* Deadlift
* Bent-Over Rows
* Overhead Press

I advocate 10 reps for 3 sets on all exercises. This is a great program to follow for the beginner and will add some great mass to your frame within 6 months."

Is this really sufficient to work all muscle groups?

[Talyn]

Or, I've just found this... http://bit.ly/eS5DjD :

"This routine follows a 2-day split and works your entire body:

Monday

* Squat
* Bench Press

Friday

* Deadlift
* Bent-Over Rows
* Overhead Press

I advocate 10 reps for 3 sets on all exercises. This is a great program to follow for the beginner and will add some great mass to your frame within 6 months."

Is this really sufficient to work all muscle groups?

Yeah it's sufficient, provided you eat enough and keep progressing in each lift.

Personally though I would not do 3x10 on lifts like deadlift and squat, rather keep it at 3x5 max but go as heavy as you can.

Maybe check out Starting Strength? (just ignore the nutrition section).

[Vege-Dan]

Thanks guys, I've made my decision - it's going to be the first routine I mentioned. I'll try doing it as originally described, but if it recovery proves too slow I'll do as hardcore iv says and split it into push/pull.
Thanks again!
Dan

[JP]

hey why would ectomorphs and what ever have different routines?

wouldnt there be way more variation in individual situations in terms of recovery speed, commitment, conditioning, work/life/stress loads etc than some crude body composition?

[Vege-Dan]

Well according an article at articlesbase (http://bit.ly/gJYmbV):

""Almost 95% of ectomorphs who are trying to gain muscle mass fail not because of their body type, but because they are going to the gym with routines that aren’t designed for their specific body type instead of going to the gym with Ectomorph Routines. An ectomorphs body type is completely different than those who gain muscle mass very easily and therefore need routines that are very specifically designed for them.

An ectomorph’s body has a couple of very important details that are very important to address if they are to achieve success in the gym. The first detail is that an ectomorph’s muscles breakdown at a much quicker rate than other body types. Secondly an ectomorph's muscles take longer to repair themselves after a workout. This means that we need a routine that is going to allow for more rest and less time in the gym, which gets rid of 98% of the mass building routines out there.

Ectomorph routines should consist of workouts that last no longer than an hour. An ectomorph should keep their workout
sessions to 3-5 times a week depending on the intensity of the workout, as well as using exercises that target multiple muscle groups at a time. Ex. Bench press, military press, squats etc."

Though I was under the impression that all mass-building workouts, regardless of body type, should be no longer than an hour. In fact, this article does to seem to contradict itself - they say an ectomorph should spend less time in the gym, yet they state that one should also go to the gym 3-5 times a week. 5 times a week seems like a lot of gym time to me!

Anyhow, I tried the new routine yesterday, but the nausea stopped me from finishing and I then couldn't swallow the protein powder as I thought I was going to vomit! On top of that, I couldn't do the dips as they aggrevated the rsi in my right wrist.
So, I'm now going for the following routine, as mentioned previously:

Monday

* Squat
* Bench Press

Friday

* Deadlift
* Bent-Over Rows
* Overhead Press

Would it be wise to add a wednesday of doing just chinups (say, 3 sets of 12 reps - well as close as I can get to 12) do you think?

[KC Masterpiece]

I can't find the quote right now, but Wendler has some good thoughts on all this body-type-focused-programming mania. Guess where he stands on the issue?

Stick to proven programs to build real strength. Bill Starr, Mark Rippetoe, Louis Simmons, Jim Wendler, etc. all have more to say than musclemonsters.com or articlebase.com.

Here are what a few of them look like:

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/ ... g_Strength
http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Bill_Starr_5x5
http://www.defrancostraining.com/articl ... part1.html
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... e_strength

Given your cirucmstances, you need to EAT... A LOT. Proper recovery (a lot of food and sleep) combined with one of those programs will make you forget about body-types forever.

[JP]

yeah i wouldnt trust some article off the internet - i heard internet has all kinds of articles

i dont understand the logic anyway, everyone is aiming for maximal gains, which means as heavy as possible, as often as possible with as high of a volume as possible - and then individual differences would balance it out how much work it actually is.

If someone gains easy, they would still work as hard as possible for maximum gains. For someone who doesnt gain that easy, they work their arse off for their own individual maximal gains.

But to take some kind of bodytype/hardgainer thing as an excuse to cut down the work from the outset without even trying to increase the workload over time (as EVERYONE should be able to when they start) it seems like a defeatist way to start it all off.

[Vege-Dan]

I guess it is a matter of making realistic goals. I don't have the time nor the motivation to work out out three times a week unfortunately. I'm simultaneously self-employed and employed part time, and Sunday is my only day off, making a two-day workout the most realistic goal.
Whatever routine I follow, I'll be increasing the weight each week. Last year I split my workout across three days but there was usually a spillover into the next week. For example Sunday: day 1, Thursday: day2, Sunday: day 3, Thursday: Day 1 etc.

Last year I did the following routine for 6 months:

Day 1

Chest:
Incline Bench Press: 2x5
Dumbbell flys: 2x5

Triceps:
Skullcrusher: 2x5
Kickback: 2x5
One arm seated extension: 2x5

Day 2

Back
Chinup: 2x5
Bent over row: 2x5
Pullover: 2x5

Biceps:
Incline dumbbell curl: 2x5
Hammer curl across body: 2x5
wrist curl over bench: 2x5

Torso:
Ab curls: 2x5

Day 3

Quads:
Lunge: 2x5
Step-up: 2x5
Squat: 2x5

Hamstrings:
Stiff leg deadlifts: 2x5

Shoulders:
Standing dumbbell press: 2x5
One arm front raise: 2x5
Shrugs: 1x8

I was adding half a kilo to each exercise most weeks and by the end of the 6 months I'd gained 1 and a half stone.

I might add that I have chronic acid reflux against me. So I can't eat anything for a few hours before going to bed, which obviously makes gaining even harder. Going to bed hungry every night when trying to gain weight can be tortuous to say the least!

I'm tempted to follow last year's routine now that I look at it. If there's anything you guys would shave off this routine, what would it be?

[KC Masterpiece]

a two-day workout the most realistic goal.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... 1_reloaded

Modification #2:

Q: I'm a busy guy and hitting the gym four times a week is tough. Any lower frequency ideas that still yield gains?

A: "I get this a lot, and I have a kick-ass answer. Move everything to two times a week and do the following:

Week 1:

Monday: Squats 5/3/1, leg press 5 x 10, stiff leg deads 5 x 10, abs

Thursday: Bench press 5/3/1, dumbbell press 5 x 10, dumbbell row 5 x 10, biceps curls (yes, curls).

Include three days of hard conditioning (hill sprints) on nonconsecutive days.

Week 2:

Monday: Deadlift 5/3/1, safety bar squat 5 x 10, good mornings 5 x 10, abs

Thursday: Overhead press 5/3/1, chin-ups 5 x 10, dips 5 x 10, biceps curls (no, the joke isn't on you, biceps curls).

Include three days of hard conditioning (hill sprints) on nonconsecutive days.

That's it.

I've advised a lot of busy guys to follow this routine and virtually all got bigger, stronger, and in better shape faster — and for longer — because there's so much less potential for burnout."

With the reduced frequency, Wendler says there's no need to deload, and each training cycle now goes six weeks instead of the usual four.

And for those guys who think that this sounds like their mama's split, Wendler says look out.

"The 5 x 10 assistance work is no joke, if you hit it hard. It's definitely not a pussy split — in fact, it could be the best variation of all.

Following this split is the reason I decided recently to do another meet."

Q: Twice a week of lifting: Are you sure that's enough volume?

A: "I think most guys — even guys with all kinds of time to train — would be better off stripping down their volume and stepping up their conditioning," says Wendler.

"Something almost magical happens to the body when you get in great condition. You look better, feel better, and you perform better.

This is essentially what we did when I played football and I seem to recall that everyone on the team was in shape."

[Vege-Dan]

OK thanks, that'll do it nicely. One last thing: on day 2 there are dips, which my rsi wrist won't allow. Any good alternative to dips? I've read decline bench presses. Would you agree?

[JP]

if i had two days, i would definitely squat on both days, maybe back on one, front on another.

Press on both days too.

deads - maybe just once, but could do pulls like cleans in the other.

Would be hypocritical of me not to suggest squatting twice a week since i squat on every workout, so thats 4 or 5 times

(i am typical ecto, been skinny as a rake most of my life, not gifted at this shit at all)

[Linnéa76]

Maybe you should adjust the regime to your temperament, i e the balance between blood, yellow bile, black bile, and phlegm?

Sorry just teasing, best of luck with your goals!

[Vege-Dan]

Right thanks again guys. I'll let you know how it goes!