People who fall off the wagon or knock veganism...

[mabli]

I think its very much worse to meet an ex vegan or veggie than someone who hasnt even considered animal rights yet... there's always the chance the omnivore will find enlightenment.

This is the thing I don't agree with (not having a go at you Mabli - but I get the impression a lot of people feel like this). I think it's easy to go after those who are quite close to your way of thinking, whether that's in diet, music or any subculture. I have no idea why I should respect an omni that has never considered any form of veggie or veganism more than one who has given it a go!

As for weakness..... I suppose everyone here citing weakness has succeeded in everything they have ever done in life!? Well aren't you the perfect, model humans

Hey skoptic its ok to have a go Im tough enough i think

It just annoys me massively when Im sat in a group of people and i have to listen to someone whine on about how hard it was to be vegan/veggie.. i cant combat with "you're wrong!" cos its their life experience. This gives omnis totally the wrong impression of veganism/veggie.

Im citing weakness cos I cant think of any other reason why someone would eat meat when they've been veggie for 7 years or so... and then carry on eating meat. I genuinly dont understand it, once you realise an animal is a person how do you go back on that idea and start eating them?(assuming you are veggie for ethical reasons).

Actually Im not saying you should respect an omni, just ive got more chance of convincing an omni to eat less meat and dairy than when ive got some tit sitting next to me claiming they got terribly weak and ill cos they didnt have bacon butties and the whole conversation revolves around their big fat pathetic exscuses when it had been gearing towards the multi benefits of veganism!!!

As I say I get the feeling they talk to me about it cos they want to connect with me on common ground but they just really annoy me

I accept what you say about sub cultures, but i dont think someone who reverts to being an omni is close to my subculture... whatever that is, but I happily coexist with veggies

[skoptic]

Yeah I know what you mean - it must being annoying for people to undermine your veganism by going on about how difficult it is. But I've realised that in reality everything is only as difficult as we make it. We are so committed to veganism that it's really easy to do .... but here is a little personal confession....

- I don't recycle as much as I should
- I probably use more electricity and water than I should
- I wear a lot of petroleum based clothes
- I have 'stolen' a lot of artistic works by sharing
- I own and use a car
- I buy foods that are out of season locally and probably have large import costs
- I fly by plane maybe twice a year

If I met anyone who held any of these things as their highest priority - I would be the whiny person claiming that it was too difficult to do these things. Actually it's just that they are not high enough priorities for me to do them as best as I can, day in day out and I make "excuses" why I can't achieve them. I reckon that we are probably all guilty of something when judged by other people's priorities, and if that's their highest priority ... then we look evil to them!

Now I'm looking at them in a list ... maybe I should sort my life out!

[xrodolfox]

^Fuck it. I do all those things. Exactly as you do.

None of those are really isn't a priority to me.

I feel like there are much better ways to change the world for the better.

That said, I totally agree with your analysis.

[mabli]

Yeah I know what you mean - it must being annoying for people to undermine your veganism by going on about how difficult it is. But I've realised that in reality everything is only as difficult as we make it. We are so committed to veganism that it's really easy to do .... but here is a little personal confession....

- I don't recycle as much as I should
- I probably use more electricity and water than I should
- I wear a lot of petroleum based clothes
- I have 'stolen' a lot of artistic works by sharing
- I own and use a car
- I buy foods that are out of season locally and probably have large import costs
- I fly by plane maybe twice a year

If I met anyone who held any of these things as their highest priority - I would be the whiny person claiming that it was too difficult to do these things. Actually it's just that they are not high enough priorities for me to do them as best as I can, day in day out and I make "excuses" why I can't achieve them. I reckon that we are probably all guilty of something when judged by other people's priorities, and if that's their highest priority ... then we look evil to them!

Now I'm looking at them in a list ... maybe I should sort my life out!

For this to be a fair comparrison you would need to have been a campaigner for one of those issues and then cop out because of (insert your own exscuse/reason that makes you sound good and the issue crap). then bitch about it to everyone.

I wouldnt mind so much if they said "I stopped being vegan/veggie cos I just couldnt be bothered any more" but they tend to give a reason that shows veganism /veggies in a bad light just to cover themselves. Then they tell me about it and expect me to be sympathetic... which Im not!

[BlueRose]

Every time I hear the complaint "It's hard", it's usually due to one of two things:

1) They miss cheese.
2) It's "too expensive".

On rare occasions it's because they ate like it's a diet versus a lifestyle change and got very ill by not learning the basics of nutrition.

For #1 I refer them to Daiya and Sheese, and #2 I tell them I know people who are in min wage jobs living in eastern MA who are vegan and can do it. They have to go to farmer's markets, buy in bulk, and cook. No more processed food for them. Healthier for you anyhow.

For #3 I tell them to learn about the vegan food pyramid. The only nutrient the tracker I use whines on occasion I don't get enough of are carbs and warns me that I am going over on calcium and iron. I am defeating every vegan stereotype there is, I swear!

[skoptic]

For this to be a fair comparrison you would need to have been a campaigner for one of those issues and then cop out because of (insert your own exscuse/reason that makes you sound good and the issue crap). then bitch about it to everyone.

LOL .. I'll choose one to start campaigning for and get my shite excuse ready

[iain_g]

but here is a little personal confession....
- I don't recycle as much as I should
- I probably use more electricity and water than I should
- I wear a lot of petroleum based clothes
- I have 'stolen' a lot of artistic works by sharing
- I own and use a car
- I buy foods that are out of season locally and probably have large import costs
- I fly by plane maybe twice a year

Now perhaps someone can jump in with some peer-reviewed scientific references, but I'd be willing to put good money on the claim that switching from a typical western meat-centred diet to a vegan one gives far, far more benefit to the environment than any of the meaures above (unless taken to extremes, like if you flew 20 times a year ).
[Leaving out the artistic expropriation which is a different kind of issue.]
Not to mention the avoidance of the considerable suffering of thousands of sentient creatures over a lifetime's meat/dairy consumption.
Just MHO, feel free to shoot me down...

[chloe]

Id have to say im with Mabli on this,for her same reasons and for various others,and to be honest alot just cos they annoy me,.. i also think that ex vegans are really negative advocates for veganism,there is ALWAYS an excuse other than their own inability to carry through with something meaningful and important in life,or else they went vegan cos it was 'trendy' when they were an angsty college student,which is just as bad-those people make me feel like the hugely important 'rules' i live my life by,were just a frivolous 'phase' in their lives.And like mabli said the meat eaters at least could have the excuse of lack of education,and theres still time for them to see the light!

[Mum2Lucian]

I've always got the "I became anaemic when I was a vegetarian/vegan" excuse or the "I can't absorb any iron from plant foods" excuse as well. Or the people who think that eating kangaroo meat is more environmentally friendly than just being a vegan.

I confronted an old uni friend who was vegan when I first started uni. We were both in the same hall of residence, and she was pushing people to become vegetarian/vegan. I was still a meat eater at that time, but respected her beliefs. When I got back into contact with her a year ago and said I had made the change to veganism, she said that eating meat was fine and didn't really affect the environment if it was organic. She also said that she only ate organic, ethically sourced dairy and eggs. I sent her a long email with the facts on eating and living a vegan lifestyle. I haven't heard from her since.

[beforewisdom]

Ex-veg*ns do irritate me ( I don't think that is a good thing ), but they bother me a lot less now.

In the last few years there have been some ex-vegans and ex-AR people who not only became ex, but who went out of their way to trash veganism. New York Times articles, blogs and books, etc.

Those people have made me respect the people who simply quit veganism and move on.

[beforewisdom]

There are some serious activists and long term vegans who quit, then came back. I think it is good to tell yourself that an ex-vegan may come back someday. It makes you less resentful, which makes you feel better and it makes them feel more welcome, which makes it more likely they will reconsider someday.

[ha]

I see an objection as a request for more information.

Therefore I:

*Put my blood tests up on youtube. ' vegan blood tests' -thats me, durianrider.

*I ask people questions like 'How many grams of protein a day do you get? how many essential amino acids are there and do plant foods contain all 8 essential amino acids? (yes)

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content ... 05/25/e197

http://drmcdougall.com/misc/2010nl/jan/poison.htm

http://drmcdougall.com/med_hot_protein.html

*I ask people how far they can ride a bike and how come I can ride further as a vegan (Nobody Ive met personally has riden 515km solo in a day, and if I see robic, I will cross the street.

*I ask people what % of human mothers breast milk is protein in terms of calories? (5%)

*I ask em if milk prevent osteoporosis, then how come the countries with the highest dairy intakes have the highest rates of osteoporosis? http://www.notmilk.com

*I ask people whats the number one thing we can do to reduce global greenhouse emissions?
www.51percent.org

I always answer any questions people ask me. I take nothing personally and see it as a chance to learn more facts and help more people be the change they want to see..

[pkjane]

On rare occasions it's because they ate like it's a diet versus a lifestyle change and got very ill by not learning the basics of nutrition.

Some of the people I know (before I became vegan, myself) complained about this. A lot of it had to do with the fact they were eating the same way but as a vegan. Junk food, and a lot of white food like rice.

I told them ( as someone rather versed in nutrition) to switch to whole grains and plan your meals around macro nutrients and you absolutely have to supplement. Success, regardless of your diet always comes from meal planning! I didn't know what exactly vegans miss out on, nor did I know that most vitamin sources are animal based (D3, some calcium, some zinc) but they knew and mentioned the main ones (B12, D2, etc).

Given what I know about nutrition, and some documentaries I saw on the environment and disappearing habitat combined with what I knew about farming (torture factories), I couldn't eat my diet anymore (chicken, fish, eggs, dairy, lots of veg). I phased out all animal or the remaining animal by products I was using just before Christmas and I haven't looked back,

Last week was a little touch and go when I was chronically exhausted, so I just bought some Iron supplements and three days later I already feel much better.

[beforewisdom]

A few years ago activist Rae Sikora did a podcast interview of why veg*ns quit. A very useful interview. If you know about potential problems ahead of time you can prepare for them:

http://beforewisdom.com/blog/veganism/why-vegans-quit/


Of course, that assumes people want to be vegans.

IMO, some of the more vociferous ex-vegans we have heard from lately may not be about that.

[Lisey_duck]

I'm an ex-ex-vegan, one who went away and came back. Never anti-vegan, just unable to practice it at one particular stage of life. From that perspective I suspect that a lot of the knocking of veganism comes from defensiveness, people feel that they are going to get grief anyway for quitting just for their own health (I suspect spuriousness there but can't really say about people I don't know except through what they put on their own blogs) or convenience, so they dig around for other reasons why veganism is suddenly bad, destroying the planet and anyone who stays on the wagon is going to DIE GODDAMIT!!! because what goes for them goes for all of us. I'm personally glad not to have gone down that path, despite having read a whole lot of the same critical stuff these guys seem to - it would have made it very difficult to go back to veganism a couple of years later. Nonetheless I hope a few of the ex-vegans do make it back to this side of the fence, so I'm not going to be too obnoxious for fear of turning them off from that.