How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Johnboy74 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:01 pm

Asleep on a sunbeam wrote:There are many different people in life who hold opposing views about God.
Some say there are many Gods.
Some say there's just 1 God.
Some people say God is all loving.
Some people say there's a hell.
Not everybody's belief in God can be true.
On the other hand with light through a prism there aren't those same contradictions, are there?


The fact that people all over the world believe in a god, believing in different gods to other people serves
to highlight not the existence of god. But highlight the fact that the human brain is wired in such a way that
we look for gods to believe in.
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Johnboy74 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:06 pm

Konstantin wrote:
Asleep on a sunbeam wrote:
Bounce wrote:I was raised a Christian by two ex-Mormons, left the Presbytarian church at seventeen having served as head chorristor and then flirted with Paganism. In my early twenties, my mother introduced me to Buddhism, which I also loved learning bits of. I think that Buddha's teachings (or what I know of them) are great, real good psychology...

I went to a Unitarian church in Brixton a few weeks ago and was going to go back today, though unfortunately it was a rare occasion where I overslept. :oops:

So right now I'd say I do believe in God... But God as a force of nature, as a beam of light shining through a prism and creating a rainbow of different forms for inspiration, not as a white guy sat on a cloud caressing his beard and damning the gayers/non believers/shellfish eaters to hell.


So not as an actual consciousness, but the way in which light works, gravity works, the laws of physics are, God?


+1


I don't understand why plus 1?
How can laws of physics and quantum Mechanics be described as god?
Laws of nature are laws of nature, you guys believe that the atom, the quark, the string or unifying theory of everything is god?
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Asleep on a sunbeam » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:12 pm

You realise these aren't my beliefs right?
I'm trying to see what peoples arguments for God are.
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Asleep on a sunbeam » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:14 pm

Johnboy74 wrote:
Asleep on a sunbeam wrote:There are many different people in life who hold opposing views about God.
Some say there are many Gods.
Some say there's just 1 God.
Some people say God is all loving.
Some people say there's a hell.
Not everybody's belief in God can be true.
On the other hand with light through a prism there aren't those same contradictions, are there?


The fact that people all over the world believe in a god, believing in different gods to other people serves
to highlight not the existence of god. But highlight the fact that the human brain is wired in such a way that
we look for gods to believe in.


I'm saying that beliefs about God can't all be true because they're incoherent and contradict each other, so I don't think it's a particularly strong metaphor unless I've got the wrong end of the stick.
And I don't agree with your last sentence.
Are you honestly trying to say that looking for supernatural beings is embedded as part of our instinct?
That's far too specific for an issue like this.
Perhaps you could claim we look to explain things, but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll go to supernatural beings.
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Johnboy74 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:22 pm

Asleep on a sunbeam wrote:You realise these aren't my beliefs right?
I'm trying to see what peoples arguments for God are.

Steady on fella, I didn't name you here specifically mate :)

Asleep on a sunbeam wrote:I'm saying that beliefs about God can't all be true because they're incoherent and contradict each other, so I don't think it's a particularly strong metaphor unless I've got the wrong end of the stick.
And I don't agree with your last sentence.
Are you honestly trying to say that looking for supernatural beings is embedded as part of our instinct?
That's far too specific for an issue like this.
Perhaps you could claim we look to explain things, but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll go to supernatural beings.


As I said above, the human animal has specific ways of thinking and the fact that religion is worldwide and in many forms proves that religious belief is a manifestation of cognitive processes. The fact that each religion contradicts each other is beside the point. Psychologists have done studies that prove that people are more inclined to accept a purpose-seeking explanation to an event or a situation, then they are very likely to believe in a god and supernatural phenomena.
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Asleep on a sunbeam » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:01 pm

Johnboy74 wrote:
Asleep on a sunbeam wrote:You realise these aren't my beliefs right?
I'm trying to see what peoples arguments for God are.

Steady on fella, I didn't name you here specifically mate :)



Well you did kind of quote me... :wink:

Asleep on a sunbeam wrote:I'm saying that beliefs about God can't all be true because they're incoherent and contradict each other, so I don't think it's a particularly strong metaphor unless I've got the wrong end of the stick.
And I don't agree with your last sentence.
Are you honestly trying to say that looking for supernatural beings is embedded as part of our instinct?
That's far too specific for an issue like this.
Perhaps you could claim we look to explain things, but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll go to supernatural beings.


As I said above, the human animal has specific ways of thinking and the fact that religion is worldwide and in many forms proves that religious belief is a manifestation of cognitive processes. The fact that each religion contradicts each other is beside the point. Psychologists have done studies that prove that people are more inclined to accept a purpose-seeking explanation to an event or a situation, then they are very likely to believe in a god and supernatural phenomena.[/quote]

That's interesting, I'd like to look at one of the studies sometime (or more the analysis of one, I'm sure the actual studies themselves are boring:P ). Do you know where I could find a good one?
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Konstantin » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:23 pm

Johnboy74 wrote:
Konstantin wrote:
Asleep on a sunbeam wrote:
So not as an actual consciousness, but the way in which light works, gravity works, the laws of physics are, God?


+1


I don't understand why plus 1?
How can laws of physics and quantum Mechanics be described as god?
Laws of nature are laws of nature, you guys believe that the atom, the quark, the string or unifying theory of everything is god?


Just a personal belief, which I appreciate makes no sense to some people. I don't believe in a bloke on a cloud, the one in the Bible, or loads of the other personalities. I feel there is something there in the incredible ways that grass grows, worms digest compost, glaciers carved out the views from my corner of Dartmoor, I've been enabled to run, the design of the elephant and so on and so forth. Some atheists say it's all random, and maybe chance is god.

So yes, in my opinion atoms and quarks are part of god. If you don't like it and think I'm talking shite, fair enough. Maybe you're right, but it works for me.
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Bounce » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:59 pm

Asleep on a sunbeam wrote:I'm not so sure that's a good metaphor, but you might correct me here.
There are many different people in life who hold opposing views about God.
Some say there are many Gods.
Some say there's just 1 God.
Some people say God is all loving.
Some people say there's a hell.
Not everybody's belief in God can be true.
On the other hand with light through a prism there aren't those same contradictions, are there?

I am talking about feeling and experience, not about creeds.

The thread title is asking if people believe in God and I do... I believe in my interpretation and also feel I experience the same emotions connected to 'God' as other people (but in my mind, 'God' is different). God is a force of nature, God as the ever changing world to me. I don't believe God to be sentient... Like separate from the universe... I guess 'God' is the universe.

I have been described as a Pantheist before, so maybe that's the best label.
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Bounce » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:01 pm

..
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Asleep on a sunbeam » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:42 pm

I just think you're giving a new word to either, laws of physics, nature, anything happening. God implies something that transcends matter and energy.
Something that's beyond existence.

Essentially you just seem to be broadening God to mean existence... :?
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Bounce » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:17 pm

Asleep on a sunbeam wrote:I just think you're giving a new word to either, laws of physics, nature, anything happening. God implies something that transcends matter and energy.
Something that's beyond existence.

Essentially you just seem to be broadening God to mean existence... :?

With respect, I think you're being ethnocentric with what is an acceptable use of the word 'God'.

God can have several definitions. The Vedic ideas surrounding 'God' for example, are very different to ideas from Abrahamic roots. Just like different cultural ideas surrounding gender, health, sexuality, honour and wealth. There is no correct way of thinking, feeling, or choosing a relationship with the world so long as we are sincere (in my own view).

I don't really see the fuss over the use of one word. It is a reflection of my experience... I am in awe of nature. Ergo, nature is my God.

I respect that not everybody shares this passion or interpretation and don't mind if they think I am labelling my own beliefs wrong/arbitrarily. I live with them 24/7 and for me, they work. :)

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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Johnboy74 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:15 pm

This is getting interesting now...

Alot of people who are agnostic talk about being connected to a source, an all encompassing, all powerful source. Personally I think using words 'God' and 'Believe' are quasi semantic dividers between agnostics and atheists who essentially have the same viewpoint. The words 'God' and 'believe' have too many signifiers that confuse discussions on the metaphysical. If take god out the equation and don't rely on belief but evidence, I think we can agree(?) that the universe is the all powefull source of creation. It is the source that we are all connected to, we our bodies, this planet are all part of the universe.

I agree with Konstantin that the world around us is an amazing spectacle, which can if your not watching your brain convince you that their must be a great designer. The way I see it, from the beginning of what we know as the start of the universe, random physical laws have over time and space evolved into complex systems upon systems, upon systems beyond comprehension to the complex universe we see before us. But with science we have knowledge of quantum mechanics to explain the universe and the creation of all things that precede the creation of matter. I concede that the universe still has alot of unknowns and surprises for which we don't know and may never know.
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Asleep on a sunbeam » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:30 am

Bounce wrote:
Asleep on a sunbeam wrote:I just think you're giving a new word to either, laws of physics, nature, anything happening. God implies something that transcends matter and energy.
Something that's beyond existence.

Essentially you just seem to be broadening God to mean existence... :?

With respect, I think you're being ethnocentric with what is an acceptable use of the word 'God'.

God can have several definitions. The Vedic ideas surrounding 'God' for example, are very different to ideas from Abrahamic roots. Just like different cultural ideas surrounding gender, health, sexuality, honour and wealth. There is no correct way of thinking, feeling, or choosing a relationship with the world so long as we are sincere (in my own view).

I don't really see the fuss over the use of one word. It is a reflection of my experience... I am in awe of nature. Ergo, nature is my God.

I respect that not everybody shares this passion or interpretation and don't mind if they think I am labelling my own beliefs wrong/arbitrarily. I live with them 24/7 and for me, they work. :)

Peace


To be honest I find it fairly interesting, I'm trying to to get my head around how you use the word. It's the very reason that you're not using it in the Anglo Christian way, no more than that, the way you're using outside of Abraham related religions.
Even Hinduism and Buddhism.
I can't comment on say, Sikhism, at all (and my understanding of some of the above is extraordinary limited).
That reason why this is of interest to me.

The reason I'm talking about God in semi set terms is because of the society we're in. If I can understand what you mean I can then assess fully if I agree or disagree with what you're saying/trying to say.

But based on how you're using the word, unless I've mistaken something, you just seem to be making what you're saying overly complex, personally the way you're using the word has so far been a hindrance in understanding what you mean.

That said, just by looking at the clouds, a sunset, a clear nights sky, the moon, I'm often struck by how lovely I find it (personal perception FTW!) I don't know if that's similar to what you mean or not, although if it is then, applied obviously to further areas I'm sure.

On the other hand when I think about the way we evolve, I can't help but be reminded of the survival of the fittest.
Maybe that's why I stick to things that aren't based in life forms? I don't find the method of death generally that awe inspiring :lol: .
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Fallen_Horse » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:49 am

Johnboy, I don't suppose you have an argument to convince me to be atheist? (I ask because I haven't seen a good one yet). I'm agnostic btw...
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Re: How many of you believe or do not believe in God?

Postby Asleep on a sunbeam » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:54 am

Fallen_Horse wrote:Johnboy, I don't suppose you have an argument to convince me to be atheist? (I ask because I haven't seen a good one yet). I'm agnostic btw...

What do you mean by those two terms?
They're very muddled in modern day English.
E.G. for atheist I've heard all of these.
A belief in no God (and the general supernatural, apply that to the rest of this post).
A lack of a belief in God.
A belief that we can never know.
etc.
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