systema

[Gelert]

I'm glad you are aware of the distinction. As ye train, so shall ye fight

Oh, Gelert. Do you kill people while training? You said you'd be okay with killing someone who attacked you, so - taking all you've said into account - I can only assume you'd be okay with killing your training partner.

Assumption is....


Training must be REALISTIC and RELEVANT for it to have any value. Sometimes that involves a certain, balanced amount of danger or risk but that must be managed carefully to ensure it is as safe as possible. That does not mean that killing students is part of the deal. You're being offensively facetious.

The maxim of "as ye train, so shall ye fight" - similarly rendered as "train hard, fight easy" (that one should be familiar to the Spetsnaz wannabes as it originated from a Russian General) has absolutely nothing to do with endangering trainees.

Let's be clear here - the most dangerous training is that which does not prepare the student for the situation in which they will find themselves in.

That may be because it is unrealistic or irrelevant.

And to my mind that is what this systema stuff is showing. I see fat blokes in combats using the efficiency of their skills against compliant students as its "proof", and plenty of images of said fat blokes with sniper rifles, ghillie suits and entrenching tools, lapsing over into the side of paramilitary training.

Let's be clear - similar training has resulted in trainees being hurt in other schools. Within the gate of the school. It's a fair bet that others get hurt by its application later on, in RL.

What do you want out of a self protection system, EceGled, something that works, with a minimum of bullshit, or an excuse to fantasize about being a Russian commando?

[EceGled]

You're being offensively facetious.

Perhaps. I still don't think the statement I was responding to made much sense as a reasoning for skepticism about the realism of systema. I think you're being equally facetious. You think I don't know that a martial art needs to be realistic? You've just admitted that a martial art can't be entirely realistic in training. If you don't want others to be facetious, maybe you should start with yourself.

If you want to criticize systema for being unrealistic, tell me what martial art you believe is more realistic. I've heard most martial arts criticized for being unrealistic. If you want to criticize martial arts for being unrealistic, we could start a new thread that would go on endlessly. TKD is criticized for working in competition but not on the street, Aikido is criticized for only training with "caricatures" of attacks, traditional martial arts are criticized for having too much emphasis on kata, etc. Systema seems relatively realistic to me, but you seem more interested in explaining your skepticism than having a discussion about how realistic it actually is. To me this is not a question of "to be or not to be realistic." It's how realistic. And when you take a martial art devoted largely to martial practicality versus one devoted half to tradition, I'm going to guess that the former is more martially practical.

I still don't see a reason to be skeptical about the practicality of systema punches. "There's a difference between demonstration and real fighting" is not a reason to be skeptical about a completely de-contextualized demonstration video. "Some systema students fantasize about being a Russian commando" is hardly a reason to be skeptical either. There are students like that everywhere, and those I know who train systema are not among them.

[Gelert]

I don't have many massive problems with Systema itself. I have no direct experience of it. People I know who have think it is fairly credible. You assure me it is, for what it's worth. My major criticism, on the other hand is to do with its presentation and context.

"Some systema students fantasize about being a Russian commando" is hardly a reason to be skeptical either. There are students like that everywhere, and those I know who train systema are not among them.

There is a difference between students being like that - yes, they are everywhere - and whether the environment in which they are taught encourages it or reins it in. If the latter, no big problem.

If the former, there is EVERY reason to be sceptical, as quite often it stems from an unsuitable syllabus being taught, potentially by unsuitable individuals.

If you care to have a look at the link to the gallery of camp photos at the South African systema school, I am sure you will see where my doubts come from. Think to yourself whether many of the activities shown have a place in any realistic self-defence programme for civilians. Feel free to PM me if you want your attention drawn to specific aspects of concern.

Once you have had a think about that, perhaps we can resume this conversation in a more progressive manner

[EceGled]

Here is the website for the formerly systema group that my Aikido instructor trains with. The name of the group has been changed to KaizenTao (don't ask me why).

Here are some testimonials from people I know:

The martial arts training I’ve received under Mr. Thong Nguyen is the best combatives training program I've ever seen. I've never found any martial art this complete. As a Marine we need to be both physically fit and ready for combat at any moment and KaizenTao helps to accomplish these goals. Combatives aside, I’ve been able to heal my mind and body and through specialized drills and exercises. A severe shoulder injury I have is progressively healing through this training. This martial art is for everyone whether you need to get in shape, heal your body, relax, learn self-defense or just have a good time. It has improved the quality of my life in every aspect. Semper FI
- LCPL. Jon Skeens
USMC, Muay Thai, Aikido

The longer I train with Mr. Thong Nguyen the broader and deeper the ramifications of his teaching. The training has had a major impact in all areas of my life, affecting not only my other martial training and teaching, but also my work, sense of self and, especially, ability to deal with stress. Many teachers say all the right things regarding martial arts training, but I’ve never met a teacher as deeply committed as Mr. Nguyen to his student’s actual growth. The magic of Mr. Nguyen’s classes is not so much his martial arts and movement skills, though they are prodigious, but his commitment and ability to transmit his knowledge to every student in class. In my 27 years in martial arts training, I have never seen this unique quality in any other martial arts master.
- Nick Kiritz, Chief Instructor 5th Dan Aikido Schools of Ueshiba
Georgetown Aikikai/DC Impact/Model Mugging Self-Defense Trainer

I have learned from Thong that the manner in which we train is as important as the manner in which we approach training. Everyone in his class shows up each week with a spirit of both self and group improvement. Our success is measured by the growth of the group as a whole as much as it is by the destruction of personal barriers, such as tension or weakness. Such a supportive, non-competitive training environment is a rare gift, and one which continues to impress, improve, and deliver results to the whole group, and not simply individuals within it.
- Kevin Boyd
Graduate Student Georgetown University, Aikido

I also read a comment by someone who went to a few classes and thought that KaizenTao is focused on "concepts" for which you ideally need a prior skill base to add them to. Maybe that explains why they generally accept students by referral only.

[Jon]

For anyone who is in the London area and interested in seeing for themselves what Systema is about, my instructor will be doing a seminar later this month:

30th April- 2nd May 2010 Seminar with Vadim Dobrin in London

Note: Seminar postponed until 30th April due to Weather conditions in Europe

Join Vadim for a three day seminar in London where he will share his expertese
on self-defense and systema. Based on training of the Russian Special Operation units.

We are going to have the following sessions available:

* Friday the 30th – 7pm to 9pm – Introduction to movement and multiple opponents
* Saturday 1st 9.30am to 4.30pm – All day seminar with focus on knife work.
Vadim is one of the most capable instructors in the world in general, but with respect to surviving
knife work he is in a class of his own. Make the most of this opportunity to work with one of the
world’s best
* Sunday 2nd – 10am to 4.30pm – All day seminar with focus on surviving real world encounters.
South African society is unfortunately afflicted by some of the highest crime statistics anywhere in the world,
recording in excess of 20,000 deaths due to violent crime for several years in a row.
A figure that is in excess of some active war-zones. Vadim’s training has real-world survival of violent
encounters as one of the main objectives. The type of training he provides in this regard can probably
only be achieved by being enrolled in the military, so make the most of it, it’s not often you will get
a chance to train with someone of his skill and ability as a teacher.
* Bonus: Saturday evening – 7pm till late – Hawar’s leaving do and general Systema party with Vadim.
Come and have a group Systema dinner at the Fox and Hound where we can all share stories informally, eat,
drink and have fun. Drinks will be available for purchase at the bar but all food will be included in
the price of the early bird special or else £10 if purchased seaparetely (meats, vegetables, and so on,
those of you who came to the end of year party will know the kind of feast Uldis puts on.
You certainly can’t get this for £10 anywhere in London!).

All sessions will be held at Little Venice Sports Centre in central London

Training Cost:

* Early Bird Special: If you register before or on the 20th of March you will pay only £100 for all three days and
this will also include the entry price to the Systema dinner on Saturday. That is more than 15 hours of training with
one of the world’s top instructors for £100 AND a free dinner, so it’s actually cheaper than normal classes!
If you can only make one seminar this year, make it this one!
* After the 20th of March: The price will rise to £120 for all three days
* At the door: £150 for all three days


If you can only make certain days:

* Friday Only: £25
* Saturday Only: £65
* Sunday Only: £65

Space Limited- Booking is essential.
Contact Vadim Dobrin on +27 82 460 3289
More information available on UK systema site http://www.wayofsystema.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72:seminar-with-vadim-dobrin&catid=37