Contradictions / misinformation on Vegan diet

Going vegan and new vegans in need of support or information.

Moderators: hardcore iv, bronco, fredrikw, JP, Rochellita

Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:13 pm

Heh, sorry then =p


Anyway no reason to argue further in this thread I assume.

Kinda all of us are happy with the amino acid balance which happens to be in whatever protein rich food, especially when mixed with other food sources which may or may not improve it against whatever would be the perfect mixture.

He's obviously not.

Personally I'd prefer the simple approach, overeating protein instead of trying to figure it out, the more protein the smaller chance of missing out on some scarse amino acid.

Same goes for vitamins, minerals and so on to, and I guess I'm worse of with those atm =P, stupid greens filling up my stomach!

(But so will people only drinking milk and eating chicken be to.)
User avatar
aliquis
Active Member
 
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:30 pm
Location: Örebro, Sweden

Postby Mr. Cleetus » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:30 pm

offense74 wrote:No, that is actually not what I meant. :D


heh heh, I suspected that. :P


gauze wrote: it's sad that we need to bend over backwards with a 5 page thread to quash false diet rumours THAT ARE DISPELLED MANY TIMES OVER IN THIS FORUM, for a guy who seems intent on finding any loophole NOT to go vegan.


I think I have a different version of this thread going on in my head than everybody else does. :) My question was one of the questions asked by the OP, or at least very closely related: is there any evidence of any sort of optimal amino profile for recovery. It was nothing to do with specifically the vegan diet. This is not based on any sort of rumor that has been dispelled, in fact, it seems to be an active area of research if you have a look around.

I am really quite surprised that people dismiss this as over-thinking everything. I do try and compete at an international level - no, certainly not pro, but at an amateur level. I put a lot of thought into optimizing my equipment - many don't cuz they don't want to "over-think" it. Those people are giving up free speed to me that can and does cost them placings or qualifications - this can be from only a matter of seconds lost. Every % counts. Why should it be any different for my diet? There is evidence in the literature that some things are better for recovery than others, I want to know that. I don't obsess about it, but if I can learn about it, why not? Plus, I just find it interesting. :idea:

It seems to me that most are not seeing any difference between what works and what is optimal. There is no reason those two should be identical - as has been said there is probably multiple options that "work".

And, arrrrgggghh, would some one please explain to me, that when discussing an optimal way to do something, what a reference to ANY pro does has to do with anything?!?! Does this mean any one who says that thinks all pro's are performing 100% the best the could and no improvement is possible?!?

ok, yes, I do understand getting sick of the protein combing thing, I have been there 10000 times myself to others, but, at least for my question, that is potentially irrelevant.
User avatar
Mr. Cleetus
Active Member
 
Posts: 3536
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:09 am
Location: New Zealand

Postby will_220 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:00 pm

Andrewc wrote:If you did a little research you would find that soy protein is an ingredient of a surprisingly large amount of non-vegan food,


Excuse me? I keep getting told off for doing too much research, now you're saying i'm not doing any. I can't win.

Andrewc wrote:"Like a couple of people here have asked, I too am sincerely curious to know what sport it is that you train for."

Kickboxing/boxing


As you're searching for an optimal diet I would like to know how you manage your consumption of excess sodium and cholesterol in your omnivorous diet, where you get your fibre, antioxidants or phytochemicals, or how you cope with calcium loss from excess protein consumption?


Er...ok. I sweat out sodium... oats and fibre deal with my cholestral level; which is low anyway as I don't consume many sat fats. I get my fibre from a range of veggies and starches. I drink green tea as it high in antioxidants and I think phytochemicals are found inside my naturally made daily multivitamin.

Is there any point in this? I feel like i'm wasting my time here now.
Btw, how the fuck do you know the eggs are just as good as the steak? Or the steak as good as the eggs? Or that both are better than soy? How do you make sure? How can you live with yourself maybe eating the non-optimal choice!? How will you solve this?

AAS for whole eggs was 132, 137 for buffalo free range, I wonder if I should spend some time finding something with a higher value just to mess up your mind =P


What the...?

However, the thing you emphasize is amino acid balance. Why? Because that's the one thing we think we know about.


Nope I emphasise amino acids because this is a vegan website and obtaining protein is one of the biggest concerns for a vegan
athlete as most sources of protein you obtain are incomplete.

The reason why i asked about the competetive history is that as a rule of thumb, these things worry the beginners the most*


I've been doing it for years. i have always been extremely strict over
what I eat but it has never worried me. I considered going to a vegan diet; but cutting out all the dairy scares the hell out of me.

After research I think I'm going to stick to a veggie diet; but obtaining the food from reputable sources (For instance, RSPCA freedom food eggs)

I hope not to disrespect anyone here by saying that; I admire the compassion vegans have towards animals and the ascetism in diet this compassion inspires.

From a philosophical point, my belief is that if man was meant to be a vegan, these sources of food would be given to him in plants... you shouldn't have to supplement on unnatrual synthetically made ingrediants.
will_220
New Member
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:40 am

Postby thestoatyone » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:11 pm

Ladies and gentlemen, a timely reminder:

Image
Vincit omnia pertinax virtus

My Log

muchluv wrote:When I grow up I want to be Gelert.
User avatar
thestoatyone
Active Member
 
Posts: 3392
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:39 pm
Location: West Midlands; UK

Postby will_220 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:19 pm

Just because I disagreed with your opinion does not make me a troll. My understanding is that a "troll" is an insincere person causing problems on a forum. All my posts have been sincere questions related to veganism.
will_220
New Member
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:40 am

Postby thestoatyone » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:22 pm

From a philosophical point, my belief is that if man was meant to be a vegan, these sources of food would be given to him in plants... you shouldn't have to supplement on unnatrual synthetically made ingrediants.


Not the right sorta thing to say on a vegan board if you don't wanna get flamed I'm afraid...

As for your questions, maybe some were sincere and deserve a full reply; Mr Cleetus seems up for the debate, but there's too much of the above attitude in the world for my liking and it's not totally welcome here.

The rest of the board; ammirite?
Vincit omnia pertinax virtus

My Log

muchluv wrote:When I grow up I want to be Gelert.
User avatar
thestoatyone
Active Member
 
Posts: 3392
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:39 pm
Location: West Midlands; UK

Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:23 pm

will_220 wrote:
However, the thing you emphasize is amino acid balance. Why? Because that's the one thing we think we know about.


Nope I emphasise amino acids because this is a vegan website and obtaining protein is one of the biggest concerns for a vegan
athlete as most sources of protein you obtain are incomplete.
While I agree that how to obtain high amounts of protein on a vegan diet is one of the issues being a vegan athlete the issue that some sources are incomplete of some amino acids is not.

And don't say stupid things as "but you just think that", you point us to a single source saying it is an issue instead, what's your source?


It's not the biggest concern, it's YOUR biggest concern. My biggest is most likely that I don't eat enough greens =P, atleast atm :). Or well, also that I have a hard time consuming enough quality food to gain weight, but rather have to include more crap in my diet to feel like eating enough calories (though I don't know if it ends up being much more since I may just lose more of the nutritious stuff by not being hungry.)
Getting enough quality food down would most likely both solve my energy and protein issues. But it takes more balls than drinking milk or eating cooked eggs.

Also this forum may have members with more muscle mass than your kickboxing frame, show us the pics.
Last edited by aliquis on Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
aliquis
Active Member
 
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:30 pm
Location: Örebro, Sweden

Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:28 pm

will_220 wrote:From a philosophical point, my belief is that if man was meant to be a vegan, these sources of food would be given to him in plants... you shouldn't have to supplement on unnatrual synthetically made ingrediants.
Yeah, and that's why all vegans die soon after switching diet, because plants can provide them with the nutrition they need. I must have missed that one, maybe because I haven't lived long enough to notice that one out. Neither have anyone else here, but that's just because we are so new to this vegan shit.

The B12-vitamine isn't neither of synthetical or unnatural, it's made by bacteria. And living in most places of the earth eating a varied food that's the only supplement you'll ever NEED to take.

If you choosed to live a less modern life you would eventually not need to take that one either.

Personally I don't give a shit if I have to supplement things, and it's not unnatural either, we live in nature, we are part of nature, whatever we do are natural.
Image

Bite my shiny .. ;D
User avatar
aliquis
Active Member
 
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:30 pm
Location: Örebro, Sweden

Postby vCLaW » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:29 pm

will_220 wrote:After research I think I'm going to stick to a veggie diet; but obtaining the food from reputable sources (For instance, RSPCA freedom food eggs)

Maybe you could research how "reputable" a source RSPCA "freedom food" is. To start with, you could look at the investigations here: http://www.hillside.org.uk/

From a philosophical point, my belief is that if man was meant to be a vegan, these sources of food would be given to him in plants... you shouldn't have to supplement on unnatrual synthetically made ingrediants.

Man was not 'meant' to be anything. Why does it matter if something is 'natural' or not?
Appeal to nature is a fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
User avatar
vCLaW
Active Member
 
Posts: 367
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: in the highlands of Scotland

Postby thestoatyone » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:32 pm

I'm out of here, heavy day of squatting and depriving my self of amino's tomorrow...
Vincit omnia pertinax virtus

My Log

muchluv wrote:When I grow up I want to be Gelert.
User avatar
thestoatyone
Active Member
 
Posts: 3392
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:39 pm
Location: West Midlands; UK

Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:36 pm

vCLaW wrote:
From a philosophical point, my belief is that if man was meant to be a vegan, these sources of food would be given to him in plants... you shouldn't have to supplement on unnatrual synthetically made ingrediants.

Man was not 'meant' to be anything. Why does it matter if something is 'natural' or not?
Appeal to nature is a fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
Yeah, I wanted to say "what? Are you religious? In that case why the fuck do I spend my time?", but then I thought that by meant he could also mean evolve/be in a state where plants worked fine as the only food source. We don't have to be "made" for that purpose from the begining, it could just be a statement that either we can or we can't.
User avatar
aliquis
Active Member
 
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:30 pm
Location: Örebro, Sweden

Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:39 pm

thestoatyone wrote:I'm out of here, heavy day of squatting and depriving my self of amino's tomorrow...
I guess things like Zebras do more work than any kickboxer do and they seem to be doing fine eating grass and leaves.

Maybe not the most energetic of animals unless hunted but I can't say that lions seem to be either.

And some animals seem to be able to get quite big on their plantbased diet, even though they miss out on the creatine, taurine, cla, ..
Image





If one think human made supplements are too unnatural maybe one should go all out getting all nude living outside licking ones balls and eating ones own shit to try to maximize nutrient uptake killing whoever comes nearby threating your territory! ...

.... of course wild beasts would had to be killed using only teeth and claws, or one would be limited to what would be easy to pick up, since using any modern weapons and tools or breeding cattle would be way too modern and unnatural.




So much text and time wasted on something so unnecessary and worthless.
User avatar
aliquis
Active Member
 
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:30 pm
Location: Örebro, Sweden

Postby JP » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:51 am

will_220 wrote:I've been doing it for years. i have always been extremely strict over
what I eat but it has never worried me. I considered going to a vegan diet; but cutting out all the dairy scares the hell out of me.


yeah but wouldnt make any difference as long as you have a varied and balanced, all around solid vegan diet ;)

Only difference would be that you wouldnt be consuming products based on animal abuse.

So if you like to think health holistically, veganism is the healthiest option because of the health of the animals other diets affect :D

After research I think I'm going to stick to a veggie diet; but obtaining the food from reputable sources (For instance, RSPCA freedom food eggs)


if you would like to find out about these products, this forum would be the place. It doesnt really matter if it is RSPCA freedom food or whatever, 50% of the chicklets (the males) will still be killed or put through the grinder when they are born, and tons of other counter arguments, which you may already know so I wont go through them like a froth in the mouth vegan :D

I'll move this to new vegan section though because the OP is a non-vegan asking about veganism.

Perhaps will in the future you will either find a way to satisfy your need to address the smallest of nutritional details in a vegan way (or rather have motivation to - it can of course be done!) - or realise it wont make any difference, and go vegan :D When that time comes, folk here are more than willing to help out in diet plans, questions and general support!
Last edited by JP on Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
JP
Site Admin
 
Posts: 19225
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:14 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Postby erske » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:45 am

Will_220: You'll never get any support on a vegan forum for eating animal products...

We are also not made for anything (and I seriously dislike the use of things natural in arguments) if anything we have evolved to be able to eat a large variety of foods and to be able to cope under the most scarse elements and conditions...

Anyway, my take on this is that we (no one) realy doesn't have a good idea of what is the optimal amino acid profile. The first reference values were based on eggs, since.. well.. it must be right? And ever since has been a long tidious circle argument of animal protein has the best amino acid profile cos it's the amino acid profile most like animal protein.

Also like stated before, most of the protein used is recycled, we also have a pool of free essential amino acids in the blood and liver to acomodate any sudden needs.

The protein in the recovery meal is more for stimulating recovery and anabolism than beeing used in it, a very smal part of the protein ingested will actiually being used for building muscle...

This is my reasons for not taking "protein quallity" to serious after training.

Unlike meat, we don't have this one "optimal" food source for all eaas, we allso doesn't have this one isolated source of protein (unless you'd like to supplement with protein powders or eaas). We have to eat a larger variety of foods to get the same properties. Legumes and grains will give you a pretty good amino acid profile, that along with everything ells you eat during the day will cover all your needs.. And untill one accepts this and stop thinking to much about this; veganism will seem like an imposible task. But if you are comitted it is far from impossible to do, sit down a couple of hours before the computer and try out different combinations on plant sources for your recovery drink and you'll eventually find a combination that gives you the things that YOU want...
Something irrelevant about cavemen
User avatar
erske
Active Member
 
Posts: 2148
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Sweden

Postby gauze » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:24 am

we need the RAW TRUTH from ha up in this thread!!
"I've been doing a lot of running, swimming, cycling, well, I mean, you know how it is..."

-"NO. Actually I don't know, I play real sports, I'm not trying to be the best at exercising."
gauze
Active Member
 
Posts: 732
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:07 pm

PreviousNext

Return to New Vegan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests