Contradictions / misinformation on Vegan diet

Going vegan and new vegans in need of support or information.

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Postby aliquis » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:14 am

Well, I don't know about all of the peoples diet but one guy drives a truck = fast food and eat like crap on other occasions = after workout = 1 kg winegum + 1 jar of icecream... Style ..

And a ~125 kg lifter used to eat what didn't looked all that thought thru, like some porridge or so, still good food but he didn't threw in any protein then.

Atm his workout fuel looks something like:
Some soda
Gainomax (milk based pre-mixed gainer with some regular sugar)
Lots of whey protein
1 box of raisins

and so on, he ends up at 1500-1700 kcal and most of it from crap during his workouts but then he's at the gym for 4-5 hours so I guess it doesn't matter that much .. It's not kale and chicken though ;D

One guy kinda ate only milk, and so on.

And as far as supplements go they most likely have something which isn't as good as other things should be, whatever that's true or not ..
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Postby Andrewc » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:32 am

JP wrote:
Andrewc wrote:but a lot of them have do have their diets straight and know what they're eating. So with that being said I'm not sure what kind of lifters you're basing this assumption off.


i think thats not the issue. Like spug said in his EPIC post, athletes have a "solid" diet, of varied balanced diet - but there is a qualititive difference to the obsessive attitude to the nutritional minutae that bodybuilding magazines advicate (for commercial reasons).

But in general, people in heavier weight classes, or people with huge calorie demands (like runners, long distance cyclists, swimmers) cover all that detail info by the sheer volume of food they eat.


This is derailing from the original topic, but you and Spug are right on the money regarding what muscle magazines will publish as being the "optimal" diet for an athlete when money is their motivator. I guess I'm just trying to defend some of the fat bastards a little. Ha.
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Postby aliquis » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:59 am

Andrewc wrote:but you and Spug are right on the money regarding what muscle magazines will publish as being the "optimal" diet for an athlete when money is their motivator.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mt/anabolichalo.html OMG IT BREAKS STEEL WEIGHTS! WITH IMPOSSIBLE TEMPERATURE!! ... They don't have to hide that they lie, they just do it, how the fuck do you lower the temperature into the impossible? =P

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mt/cellhard.html 26 times more mass! What would that be for JP?
"Laboratory grade dextrose"? Yeah, sounds more impressive than "cheap ass carbs!"

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mt/prototype216.html How do you concentrate amino acids?
Image
It's what dexter use while doing his 12.5 kg curls!

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mt/p70.html booring formula, "Not A Significant Source Of Dietary Fiber, Vitamin A, And Vitamin C."

Results of Aplodan will vary, you may miss out on the sun tan:
Image Image
Kinda obvious he has only lost weight but whatever.

Watch arm...
Image

In space, noone can hear you scream:
Image

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mt/le ... dcore.html 106% more GH? That's crap, I think GABA does like 400%, don't know what regular arginine do, not to mention actually working out or going to sleep =P

Bwah, looked thru most of them and still can't find the impressive benchpress figures, maybe it wasn't muscletech after all.
Last edited by aliquis on Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Andrewc » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:23 pm

^^^
I don't need any convincing of the desperate tactics and empty promises of supplement companies ;)
Back to the topic; A similar discussion arose at the club a couple of weeks ago with another vegetarian after we were told again that there's "just something extra in the meat". This was stated by an ex-vegan who despite being one strong mofo doesn't appear to be the epitomy of health and nutrition and couldn't tell me where a vegan might find protein.

Edit:
Factor in genetics, training, and assuming your diet is meeting your nutritional requirements for your lifestyle, as long as you're getting your essential aminos and aren't relying on a single source of protein one should still be able to kick arse, right?
Last edited by Andrewc on Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gauze » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:26 pm

Poundstone eats cereal for breakfast aswell. Clearly that's an area worth researching.
"I've been doing a lot of running, swimming, cycling, well, I mean, you know how it is..."

-"NO. Actually I don't know, I play real sports, I'm not trying to be the best at exercising."
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Postby xzebrasx » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:27 pm

Conclusions:

1) It's impossible to get big and strong if you aren't rich.

2) Before supplement companies came to be, no one ever got big or/and strong.

I also hear they're currently in the process of developing a new protein powder: extracted from living baby cow fetuses by a new unicorn tear technology. This new product will increase protein synthesis by 5000% and your Explosive Reverse Unilateral Preacher Curl 1RM by 357%!
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Postby JohnBarleycorn » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:15 pm

Can we do a bulk order on VF ? Maybe get it cheaper ?
I eat to nourish my compassion, not my greed

I'm the man they couldn't kill ! I cannot be destroyed with conventional weapons !

And probably the former fastest British Vegan 10, 25 and 50 mile TT rider. Probably.
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Postby Dave Noisy » Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:52 pm

Mr. Cleetus wrote:There are always improvements to be made.

Yes, and people seem to pick and choose their research.

As i've stated several times, Chris Carmichael, long-time coach of Lance Armstrong (and other successful cyclists of course) tells us that the latest research he's seen says that the ideal recovery ratio is 7:1 carbs:protein. He also states that the 'window' is around an hour.

Now, this is the guy who instructs LA, who has won the Tour de France seven times, and finished 3rd this year after 2yrs off any serious racing/training.

Doping accusations aside, i think Carmichael is pretty tuned into sports nutrition, and racing/winning the Tour de France is doubtless one of the most demanding sporting events in the world. 21 days of 6+hr days hammering it out in the saddle. 10k calories burned EACH DAY.

Hardly anyone in the sporting world goes through anything that demanding, and the guy who's won it most is doing a 7:1 recovery program. Carmichael also advocates a lower-protein diet for athletes, in the range of 70-15-15.

Of course there are differences from power lifting, but i would question if the immediate recovery process is all that different between sports. If i understand the process, the goal is to replace lost muscle glycogen ASAP, which gives the muscle the energy to repair itself. Protein or amino acids do indeed assist in absorption of the carbs, but at this stage of recovery, the body isn't actually looking for protein, but carbs.

Protein comes later, once the muscles are ready for it, and their immediate needs (energy) are fulfilled.

It's like having enough bricks to build 10 houses, but it's just you (energy) there to do the building. You're going to get a house built (muscle recovery) much faster with 1 house worth of bricks(protein), and 10 people (energy) there to help build it.
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Postby fredrikw » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:04 pm

Dave Noisy wrote:If i understand the process, the goal is to replace lost muscle glycogen ASAP, which gives the muscle the energy to repair itself.

There are quite recent studies that suggests that this immediate replacement of muscle glycogen, at least for endurance athletes, is only necessary when training multiple times per day. If the next training session is not until the following day the total amount of carbs throughout the whole day is the significant factor, not the ASAP-carbs. Quite contrary to what used to be the "truth" about recovery carbs.

But now I'm perhaps moving away from the topic at hand here :)
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Postby JP » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:09 pm

Dave Noisy wrote:Yes, and people seem to pick and choose their research.


but fortunately you are not one of them :D
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Postby XkillerX » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:13 pm

Spug, Aliquis:

Image


Question for Aliquis:

After reading through the interview, how can you still give so much money to the supplement companies? :? :x

Makes me want to find a pharmaceutical company to buy creatine straight from them, so I never again pay a dime to those slavers.
Next time, I'll spend the money on drugs instead.
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Postby offense74 » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:12 pm

Thanks Aliquis for the great info.

When it comes to research I think it would be wise to ask what we don't know instead of just forming decisions on what might be just 5% of the on the whole subject. As is evident in this thread, we're not exactly dealing with causation here, barely even correlation.
I'd love to hear what the "unsuccessful" people in different sports (especially BB) eats. It doesn't seem like the BB magazines are asking them. I bet they eat just as good, if not better (according to the rules set up by the magazines and their sponsors) than the "successful" ones.
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Postby aliquis » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:57 pm

aliquis wrote:http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mt/leukichardcore.html 106% more GH? That's crap, I think GABA does like 400%, don't know what regular arginine do, not to mention actually working out or going to sleep =P
Regarding that, other studie I saw:
http://www.jissn.com/content/5/S1/P15
"Compared to baseline (pre) values, peak GH increased 44-fold during A-GPC", sounds impressive, right?

Read the rest of the line:
"... (from 0.19 ± 0.06 to 8.4 ± 2.1 ng/mL) vs. 2.6-fold during placebo (from 1.9 ± 0.8 to 5.0 ± 4.8 ng/mL, P < 0.03) (Figure 1)"

Ok, so with the supplement the GH values at the start of working out was actually 1/10 of what it was without the supplement! Imagine that!

And with the supplement at it highest peak GH value was 68% higher than without the supplement. 44 times as high? Not really .. =P


Lies, damn lies and statistics ;D


So 106% from leukic hardcore vs this 4321% improvement from what is most likely a rather useless supplement to? Yaaawn ...


So claim + claim + claim + claim backed up with references don't help much unless you actually read the reports. And even if you do it's highly unlikely anything bad would be in them if they can hide or remove it as long as the studie is made by (or for) a company which has an interest of its own in the product...
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:18 pm

fredrikw wrote:There are quite recent studies that suggests that this immediate replacement of muscle glycogen, at least for endurance athletes, is only necessary when training multiple times per day. If the next training session is not until the following day the total amount of carbs throughout the whole day is the significant factor, not the ASAP-carbs. Quite contrary to what used to be the "truth" about recovery carbs.

But now I'm perhaps moving away from the topic at hand here :)


dunno, seems relevant to me - there was a question about aminos and optimal recovery. ...and recovery from multiple workouts in a day is at least of interest to me. :P Do you have any more info related to what you mentioned above? Also have you seen anything that mentions any relevance of amino content in that context?

Thanks for all of the info aliquis!

o74 wrote:When it comes to research I think it would be wise to ask what we don't know instead of just forming decisions on what might be just 5% of the on the whole subject.


I assume you mean in our (here on this forum) interpretation of the research and our ability to get full comprehension on topics that are out of most of our areas of expertise. It is very easy to misinterpret when lacking the appropriate background knowledge, and knowledge of the literature. Not that we shouldn't try! :D
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Postby will_220 » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:23 pm

at makes you assume that anyone responding to threads on a vegan fitness forum wouldn't also be a vegan athlete like yourself? I train 6 days a week, martial arts, weight lifting, running, hiking, biking, whatever I can fit in. I only consume protein shakes when I don't have enough time to make a proper meal. Proper meals are always better (again, with a variety of foods).

And like I said, the original author of the book that made protein combining popular has since published the following retraction:


Will_220, I dare say there are a fair few on here who are fitter and more muscular than you, and who train harder. And they probably aren't tearing themselves apart thinking about amino acid profiles.


I believe that someone seriously into fitness needs to study nutrition somewhat... just as they would need to grasp an adept
knowledge in strength science, or human phisiology.

An athletes demands are different than a normal person, so the theory of combining foods may not be applicable for many... I believe it would be an important consideration for any vegan athlete looking for optimum physical performance.


Of course you should get something down as soon as possible after training, but all the "3 hour nutritional window of opportunity" bullcrap is most likely false,


"Most likely false"; you do not actually know. This for me typifies the whole discourse for me. Vegan nutrition for athletes seems to be
somewhat understudied and could quite likely be less than optimum for athletic performance and gains.

Though I admit there have been some successful vegan athletes, so it can potentially be an effective diet.

Without the advice from top nutritionists however; i'm extremely cautious.
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