ANARCHISM AND ATHEISM

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ANARCHISM AND ATHEISM

Postby JamesAIGI » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:27 am

I have just finished reading the best 2 books I have ever read...

I was just wondering about those who may have similar views on the vegan fitness website...(or the opposite views as may be the case)..

1- The God delusion: highlights the absurdity of organized religion and it's harmful effects on people throughout the world. It promotes critical thinking and it's author suggests banning religious education in schools...something i totally agree with...

2- days or war nights of love (by crimethink) highlights the absurdity and harmful nature of western civilization (but it is too complicated to sum up here..). This book should be considered a design for life for any sane person...
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Postby Jon » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:32 am

I haven't read the God Delusion, although I hear its pretty good, but for another excellent work on the God idea I recommend "God and the State" by Mikhail Bakunin. Owing to his turbulent life its incomplete and could be a bit more refined, but still an excellent work and a must read for anyone interested in anarchism or atheism.

On Days of War Nights of Love - I thought it was pretty cool the first time I read it, quite a few years ago, but have since outgrown the petty lifestyle 'anarchism' they advocate. It may be a design for life for people who want to drop out of the existing system, but it sure aint gonna change said system or stop it from destroying the planet and everything that's living on it. Here's a pretty good critique: http://www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=3664
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Postby xzebrasx » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:51 am

Jon wrote:On Days of War Nights of Love - I thought it was pretty cool the first time I read it, quite a few years ago, but have since outgrown the petty lifestyle 'anarchism' they advocate. It may be a design for life for people who want to drop out of the existing system, but it sure aint gonna change said system or stop it from destroying the planet and everything that's living on it. Here's a pretty good critique: http://www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=3664


I concur. Murray Bookchin has written a great (31 page long) article about this entitled "Social Anarchism or Lifestyle Anarchism - An Unbridgeable Chasm". I've got it in pdf. format. If anyone's interested - let me know, I'll e-mail it to you.
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Postby JamesAIGI » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:28 am

Jon wrote:I haven't read the God Delusion, although I hear its pretty good, but for another excellent work on the God idea I recommend "God and the State" by Mikhail Bakunin. Owing to his turbulent life its incomplete and could be a bit more refined, but still an excellent work and a must read for anyone interested in anarchism or atheism.

On Days of War Nights of Love - I thought it was pretty cool the first time I read it, quite a few years ago, but have since outgrown the petty lifestyle 'anarchism' they advocate. It may be a design for life for people who want to drop out of the existing system, but it sure aint gonna change said system or stop it from destroying the planet and everything that's living on it. Here's a pretty good critique: http://www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=3664


Thanks for your reply. I will check out the book "God and the State". It is on my list and I have been intending to read it for some time.

Re your reply on days of war nights of love: Interesting comment, but I am wondering if your statement :"the petty lifestyle they advocate" may be a conformist sort of reaction. When you get to a certain age it is socially normal to have a job and be responsible and not commit "crime" as dictated by the state, therefore anything else would be seen as immature, socially unacceptable or threatening. Also, even if dropping out of the system is not going to change the system or stop it from destroying the planet, is it not the next best thing? If you don't agree with the system, why be made to suffer under it? Why not drop out of the system and then try and fight the system from outside rather than from within? If there are less numbers in the system doing less damage, surely the system will be weaker...? Logically, I do not see how this can be argued against... I will read the link you sent (the reaction to days of war nights of love)
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Postby JamesAIGI » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:33 am

xzebrasx wrote:
Jon wrote:On Days of War Nights of Love - I thought it was pretty cool the first time I read it, quite a few years ago, but have since outgrown the petty lifestyle 'anarchism' they advocate. It may be a design for life for people who want to drop out of the existing system, but it sure aint gonna change said system or stop it from destroying the planet and everything that's living on it. Here's a pretty good critique: http://www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=3664


I concur. Murray Bookchin has written a great (31 page long) article about this entitled "Social Anarchism or Lifestyle Anarchism - An Unbridgeable Chasm". I've got it in pdf. format. If anyone's interested - let me know, I'll e-mail it to you.


Hi, can you please send me the article?

J
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Postby Jon » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:17 pm

JamesAIGI wrote:Re your reply on days of war nights of love: Interesting comment, but I am wondering if your statement :"the petty lifestyle they advocate" may be a conformist sort of reaction. When you get to a certain age it is socially normal to have a job and be responsible and not commit "crime" as dictated by the state, therefore anything else would be seen as immature, socially unacceptable or threatening. Also, even if dropping out of the system is not going to change the system or stop it from destroying the planet, is it not the next best thing? If you don't agree with the system, why be made to suffer under it? Why not drop out of the system and then try and fight the system from outside rather than from within? If there are less numbers in the system doing less damage, surely the system will be weaker...? Logically, I do not see how this can be argued against... I will read the link you sent (the reaction to days of war nights of love)

No, I don't think it is a conformist reaction. I live in South Africa; there are many many people here who are forced to squat, live on the streets and/or eat out of dumpsters as a matter of survival. The way CrimethInc glorifies poverty is disgusting and an insult to people who are forced into poverty by the system, and it clearly demonstrates that most of the so-called radicals who advocate this kind of lifestyle actually have no idea of what grinding poverty is. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if many of them return to their homes in the suburbs when the weather gets colder or the lifestyle loses its novelty.

Yes, it is seen as socially normal to have a job, but it is also socially necessary (or at least work is, but could no doubt be better organised). Everything we use for our day to day survival needs to be produced somewhere, by someone (including our vegan, no-sweat, fair trade, ethical goods). If you think its revolutionary to drop out of the production-consumption cycle then fine, but bear in mind that you will be living like a parasite on the labour of those who do not have this luxury: they and/ or their families would quite simply starve - while pseudo-radicals run around glorifying poverty and homelessness. Have you ever stopped to consider why CrimethInc is much more prevalent/ popular in the so-called First World?

The tactics and lifestyle CrimethInc advocates (in Days of War) is dependent on the capitalist system, and the people who practice such a lifestyle because of their abhorrence to work or being 'normal' have a vested interest in capitalism's perpetuation - lest they be forced to work for their keep like everyone else.

Dropping out of the system won't change it. Do you think that - with the millions of poor people who have already been pushed to the margins of society by the system - a couple (hundred) more crusty punks is going to make any fucking difference?

It is my opinion, and that of most other serious anarchists (with the exception of the insurrectionists - who are no doubt serious), that capitalism can only be overthrown by a mass movement of the popular classes (something which I do not believe can be built by living and working 'outside' the system) and anyone smart enough to see that they're on a sinking ship. The lifestyle CrimethInc advocates as a means to change is incapable of achieving such a movement.

Also, I do not believe there is something as a "next best thing" to changing the system or stopping it from destroying the planet. If we do not change the system it will destroy the planet, so any attempt to live solely outside the system as it slowly collapses around us - taking the planet with it - is an utterly individualist act and thus entirely inconsistent with anarchism (in my view at least - there are lots of others).

Edit - forgot to add that I am really not interested in nor do I have the time to get drawn into a back-and-forth debate about CrimethInc. I think it represents a wholly flawed ideology and is not significant enough to warrant anarchists taking too much time out to debate. There is plenty of material on the web to debunk it.

Another edit - just want to be clear that I fully support the right of people to drop out of the system, live in its margins or on capitalism's excess if they so desire. I just do not think it is anarchism, nor that it will change anything.
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Postby xrodolfox » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:16 pm

^ Wow.
That is so right on.


I am an anarchist and an athiest.
I haven't read "The God Delusion", but I have read "Day and Nights of Love and War" by Eduardo Galeano (whose book inspired the title) and I've also read "Days of War Nights of Love" by Crimethinc as well as the later follow-up books by Crimethinc.

I've enjoyed all of them.

However, I do find the fetishishization of a crusty punk culture as a form of rebellion rather obnoxious. I think it is great that kids dumpster, that folks find alternatives to participating in dominant consumer culture, and that people find that liberating.

However, I think that to only highlight those actions (the ENTIRE BOOK!!!) is to really miss out on the vast variety of radical actions that ACTUALLY and directly threatens Capital. If a kid has the "freedom" to be able to jump frieght cars from city to city looking for food in dumpsters (which would be rather difficult when trying to build a local community around parents and children), that ability of the unattached person should also be used to take over the means of production directly, as syndicalists have done in S. America and elsewhere.

I don't begrudge folks who have the "anarchist" lifestyle down. That's needed... but I do think that it is ridiculous to have anarchism only reside in this culture rather than in actual challanges to dominant systems. (Just as anarchism shouldn't be ONLY about some academics, or only online, or only in bookstores or infoshops.) Anarchism should be for everyone in a multiplicity of activities.

I am currently most concerned with active anarchism in child-parent relationships and communities. Getting dumpstered bread really isn't as revolutionary as the nature of the relationship I have with my children right now.
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Re: ANARCHISM AND ATHEISM

Postby Johnboy74 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:45 pm

JamesAIGI wrote:1- The God delusion: highlights the absurdity of organized religion and it's harmful effects on people throughout the world. It promotes critical thinking and it's author suggests banning religious education in schools...something i totally agree with...

Thoroughly enjoyed that book. Helped me see the world for what it really is!
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Postby puppydog » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:59 pm

xrodolfox wrote:I am currently most concerned with active anarchism in child-parent relationships and communities. Getting dumpstered bread really isn't as revolutionary as the nature of the relationship I have with my children right now.


Unfortunately I am imagining you just letting your kids run wild terrorizing the neighbourhood without fear of reprimand, which I'm sure is not what you are talking about. At all.

Can you expand?
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Postby Big Good Wolf » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:07 pm

I find it amusing that, after all the shit that's happened on VF recently, there are still people here who think anarchy is a good thing.
There's worse people then Seitan, Influencer and Marolyn Moor out in the real world.

... but it sure aint gonna change said system or stop it from destroying the planet and everything that's living on it.

How many times do we have to go through this ? The planet is not going to be destroyed, it will still be here long after all the humans have gone.
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Postby xrodolfox » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:59 pm

puppydog wrote:
xrodolfox wrote:I am currently most concerned with active anarchism in child-parent relationships and communities. Getting dumpstered bread really isn't as revolutionary as the nature of the relationship I have with my children right now.


Unfortunately I am imagining you just letting your kids run wild terrorizing the neighbourhood without fear of reprimand, which I'm sure is not what you are talking about. At all.

Can you expand?


First: I *NEVER* stated that my "kids run wild terrorizing the neighbourhood without fear of reprimand". I hope you understood that.

I don't have too much time to expand right now, but perhaps reading "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn is a good start on how anarchists might parent. Just like in politics, parenting isn't a binary a) authoritarian parenting vs b) permissive parenting. There are many other options, which are actually means tested and that function ethically and responsibly which allow children to grow without authoritarianism nor with permissiveness without responsibility.

At least as far as I'm concerned, anti-authoritarianism, or anarchism, is ALL ABOUT personal (and societal, and community) responsibility. Freedom means nothing without community, and that is impossible without responsibility and love.

Big Good Wolf wrote:I find it amusing that, after all the shit that's happened on VF recently, there are still people here who think anarchy is a good thing.
There's worse people then Seitan, Influencer and Marolyn Moor out in the real world.

... but it sure aint gonna change said system or stop it from destroying the planet and everything that's living on it.

How many times do we have to go through this ? The planet is not going to be destroyed, it will still be here long after all the humans have gone.


BGW, what do you mean? I'm a bit confused about your comments. Can you post links, or explain more please?

++++++++++++++++

Perhaps if a thread is stared in which parents aren't attacked, but rather open for discussion, I'd be happy to chime in and discuss once VF North America is over.

In the meantime, this is a thread hijack. This thread is supposed to be about the quite good Crimethinc Book and a book about atheism, that'd I'll be happy to read.
"The worker has the right to leave his boss, but can she do it? And if she does quit him, is it in order to lead a free life; where she will have no master but herself? No, she leaves to sell herself to another employer. She's driven by the same hunger. Thus the worker's liberty is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means of realization; an utter falsehood."
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Postby puppydog » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:21 pm

xrodolfox wrote:
puppydog wrote:First: I *NEVER* stated that my "kids run wild terrorizing the neighbourhood without fear of reprimand". I hope you understood that.


I understood that 100% - that's why I was asking, because I didn't know what you were actually talking about :D

Thanks for the book advice!
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Re: ANARCHISM AND ATHEISM

Postby ned » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:39 pm

JamesAIGI wrote:I have just finished reading the best 2 books I have ever read...

I was just wondering about those who may have similar views on the vegan fitness website...(or the opposite views as may be the case)..

1- The God delusion: highlights the absurdity of organized religion and it's harmful effects on people throughout the world. It promotes critical thinking and it's author suggests banning religious education in schools...something i totally agree with...

2- days or war nights of love (by crimethink) highlights the absurdity and harmful nature of western civilization (but it is too complicated to sum up here..). This book should be considered a design for life for any sane person...


Not read the second one (although it sounds potentially interesting) but I have read The God Delusion. I thought it was terribly written and generally a bit of a shocker as books go :| It was the first of his books that I've read so I'll give at least one of his others a go when I can to see if that was a blip - I've heard good stuff about The Selfish Gene(?) so that may be the one I try next up.
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Postby Clem Snide » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:52 pm

God Delusion is good, not revolutionary but an excellently readable summation of many arguments, old and new. Also a nice paean to the wonderment you can find in reality without imagining extra stuff.

Didn't like the Crimethinc book, cursed with the untestable optimism on human nature that afflicts so much anarchism. Rather disingenuous as well, I thought.
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Postby Influencer » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:15 pm

[quote="Big Good Wolf"]I find it amusing that, after all the shit that's happened on VF recently, there are still people here who think anarchy is a good thing.
There's worse people then Seitan, Influencer and Marolyn Moor out in the real world.
[quote]... quote]

Are you sure BGW- you haven't met us- We could be nasty,nasty, serial killers!!! :twisted: Tracking your IP to come and axe you to death !!!!

But if your outside MCR, my free bus travel won't cover that, so any chance of meeting halfway and paying towards my travel expenses. :D
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