Steroids and this board

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Steroids and this board

Postby Rochellita » Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:42 am

As we have a (open) steroid user on the board (read Justin's new member introduction) we thought it would be good to discuss this issue. The discussion was started here:


http://www.veganfitness.net/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

How do people in the veganfitness.net community feel about this? How should the moderators deal with this in your opinion?

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Postby littlegirlbunny » Wed Mar 03, 2004 8:25 am

In terms of human choice etc, i dont have a problem with people using steroids - most of us abuse our bodies in one way or another from time to time and if your know the risks then its your choice. (but i do think people on steroids lack the attraction of people who build naturally - there is something about a naturally chiseled and strong physic! - just my opinion)

BUT in an animal rights/vegan opinion it must be remembered steriods will have undergone HORRENDOUS animal tests due to their drug status. Additionally, while people continue to use them the testing on the health risks will continue (in the same way as they are still testing tobacco - even though they know it kills you!). So my vegan voice takes an anti-steriod stance on this issue.

Should we cover them on the board? I dont think they should be discussed in any more form than any other none vegan supplements such as whey protein and egg whites - there are hundreds of other non-vegan sites which will cover steroids.
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Steroids

Postby VeganEssentials » Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:28 am

I agree with littlegirlbunny on much of what she said.

Steroids are here to stay in various sports, I'm afraid. It ranges anywhere from those who use them to stay at champion-level performance to those who are looking for a "quick" way to try and make a change in their physical appearance (which in my opinion is a pretty silly way to do it...) From a vegan standpoint they pretty well work against our philosophy, not to mention vegans should respect their bodies, and unless your career depends on being the absolute best there's no real reason for such things.

I will admit it, when I'd been lifting for around 2-3 years I did a LOT of posting and trolling around boards that were steroid-oriented, and I definitely learned a great deal while there. The funny thing is, many people wrapped up in using them consistently were using it for reasons as minor as wanting to add a few lbs. to their frame for summer, some who wanted to keep as much muscle as possible while losing the most fat, or those who simply wanted to add a few pounds to their bench and thought they'd get there faster this way. NONE of these things were unacheivable via natural training to anyone who had these as reasons for using them, but still, in this age of the quick-fix with as little work as possible to get to the end result (i.e., Atkins diet) it seemed like the best way for them. Had I gone that route, I envision I'd probably be the same way I am now, just shorter on money and feeling stupid for what I'd done. I don't know, maybe some people get something out of it that genuinely is a vast improvement and they don't end up cycling continuously for fear of losing their gains, but for most, it doesn't end up that easily; I know a few people who said "I'm just going to try it once for a few weeks and see what happens", then they're thrilled with the progress and end up using more often that they stay clean. All to make things a bit easier and quicker, what a shame...

Anyway, I personally don't care much if people discuss steroids or not on this board. If people do want to talk about it, then so be it, I respect their decision to discuss it. If not, I say ignore 'em and talk about what sounds fun. Either way, I'm not pissing away my money and stopping my natural progress far short of my true potential due to insecurity or impatience, but for those that do, have fun, and ask yourself a year or two later if it was truly for the best.

Before I end this, I'll toss out a prime example of why I don't care much for that stuff. Friend of mine has only been lifting for less then 3 years, but crappy training programs and bad eating habits hold his progress way back so he thinks he's gone as far as he can. Decides to do steroids for a 6 week cycle to try and see where it takes him. He does it for 5 weeks and is thrilled that his strength went up around 25% on all lifts and he got big enough to where people started to say "Many, you're getting huge!" But, he gets sick of feeling bloated and irritable and decides to call it quits - which doesn't work out well. He crash diets, loses all the newfound strength, all the muscle gained is gone in 2 months, and now he's weaker than when he started and completely depressed. So, what does he do? He decides to start another cycle (short-term again, of course!) What was to be a slow recovery cycle to gain back some of his mass ends up being an 8 month continuous low dose cycle, costing close to $1500 and putting him nowhere near where he'd previously been on the first one. He eventually quits altogether, says never again, and now he's far larger and stronger than when he'd messed with the stuff. Lesson learned, it was a bad investment and experiment that he seriously regrets, but it taught him a lot about lifting and how he needs to train to do things right. And again, if he'd just bothered to listen to wise training and diet advice from the start instead of being hasty it would have all worked out well, but some people just have to learn the hard way...

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no roids plz ster or hem thx lol

Postby prefab » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:50 pm

I don't like it no sir i don't like it all.lol Personally, I feel that steroids are non representative of both vegan and athletic pursuits. For vegans, the role that steroids plays in modern factory farming and on-going animal testing makes it taboo. Athletically, I'm here to improve my body. My body is my temple, and I've finally learned to really appreciate all that it gives me. It seems anti-athletic to do something that temporarily boosts performance at the expense of your physical/mental well-being. To boot, I race competitively at the age-group level and don't take to kindly to "CHEATERS" on the field. I spend countless hours doing base training to achieve this while some skin-popping junkie is watching tv and gaining mass. So it's ok if someone wants to use roids-that's just someone else's girlfriend that'll need to be pleased in the end!!

If you really want to talk about that crap go to the thousands of other boards that I recently found on anabolic drugs. With disgusting group titles like Chemist's Corner-I really don't want to focus on what a bunch of HYDE"S are doing in their basements to get "fit"-a complete mockery of the human body.
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Postby JO » Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:48 pm

It seems a lot of vegans come to this forum contemplating/seeking advice on weight-lifting, so who is to say they are well-versed in steroids? Frankly, the meaning of "AAS" only gradually dawned on me as I read the threads. The meaning wasn't obvious to me right off. For a second or two I even thought this might be some benign supplement. So I think this discussion and the list of side effects / a disclaimer etc are important.

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Postby justin » Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:59 pm

I thought I would post a reply in defence of myself and maybe other users of AAS.

I would first like to add that I do not actually use AAS at the moment, though I did use about four years ago and do I intend to use again.

I do not want to argue the merits of using steroids, nor do I wish to discuss their worth. Most people are ignorant to the facts and have made their minds up before hand. Maybe a little similar to how meat eaters pre-judge vegans sometimes, unlike myself of course.

No matter whether you intend to ignore the fact or not, AAS use in sport and everyday life has increased and is likely to carry on increasing.

You may wish to ignore, but some people might like to know why the person competing next to them is overtaking them or lifting more than them.
It makes no odds to me whether AAS is discussed on this board, but it does make for a more widespread informed community.
I respect your views and judgement.
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Postby nanoking » Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:43 pm

You may wish to ignore, but some people might like to know why the person competing next to them is overtaking them or lifting more than them.


This is the downer AAS attitude I'm talking about!

Lift hard, eat right, sleep enough, get your head straight!

Don't let the poison of self-doubt and impatience get you down! Put yourself on a trajectory to stay motivated without using dissatisfaction or unhealthy competition.

It's pretty hard to keep good form on your exercises if your head's swiveling too much. Turn up the ipod a couple decibels.

Train for your own goals and keep the long term in mind. Be proud of your own progress. Be open to new advice, but be critical of it especially when the advertised benefit is to speed things up.

-NK
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Postby JO » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:34 pm

Right on, NanoKing!

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Postby Kaz » Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:42 pm

I'm ambivalent about this. It's not something I consider to be terribly bright or something I would ever do or encourage anyone else to do. On the other hand, I'd like to know what the thought process is behind taking a substance known to have serious side-effects and which can actually kill you. Really. I'd like to know what the motivation is and why the need to look big and push/lift more weight is more important than actual health. I prefer to understand behaviour I find baffling and/or dangerous than to simply jump all over someone doing it.

I wouldn't, though, like to spend time on a board where discussion of steroid use/abuse turned into an opportunity to encourage others to use the stuff. What I'm getting so far from this board is information on being healthy rather than how to facilitate obsessive behaviour, and that's very valuable to me.
"An unexamined life is not worth living." - Socrates
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Postby nanoking » Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:50 pm

Tough to get data on steroids because:

-clinical studies are always technical, specific, ongoing
-side effects can take a long time to develop and can be dependent on many factors
-they have strong psychological effects
-people overdose/underdose, overtrain/undertrain
-it's a moneymaker so people spread misinfo and counterfeits
-it's largely underground and illegal
-people take them young which can multiply the sideeffects
-new designer drugs being invented all the time (allowing people to claim that all those bad things you heard only applies to the steriods of the past)

I've picked up and put down a couple "steroid bibles" while at the almighty B and N, but they all have that tacit nasty assumption that the reason you'd want to use them is self-evident.

If Justin or others can recommend a factual text I'd like to read it. I doubt most people research and read up on steroids before taking them. More likely word of mouth is the extent of a user's background investigation. In which case it's all peer pressure and no facts.

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Postby Kaz » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:07 pm

I doubt most people research and read up on steroids before taking them. More likely word of mouth is the extent of a user's background investigation.

Some time ago, The Independent published a piece on women and steroids (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health/story.jsp?story=383461), in which the journalist Peta Bee spent time with women outside of competitive sports who were using steroids. All of them had been convinced into steroid use by their trainers. I don't remember all the details, and the article is available only through subscription which I don't have, but essentially the women were saying that they loved the quick results but also found that their sex drives were kicked up by steroid use, and that they were more sexually responsive. This in itself made them feel better about themselves, and combined with the quick results they saw in workouts, made them more likely to continue using. I don't remember Bee mentioning that they'd done any research - they believed that their gym trainers knew what they were talking about, were using steroids themselves and had seen only positive effects, and wouldn't recommend something that was inherently bad for them.

So I think you've got people who have a poor self-image and a strong drive to achieve the cultural ideal of perfection placing a level of trust in trainers that is way out of proportion to the training and education many trainers actually have, and a pusher/dealer situation where users are pushing on those they consider to be open to the idea of steroid use: i.e. the vulnerable people who look up to them and don't think to do their own research because, hey, the trainer wouldn't advocate anything unhealthy, right?

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that's my reaction to it at this point in time.
"An unexamined life is not worth living." - Socrates
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Postby nanoking » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:40 pm

The link you provided brought up the article for me. Thanks for providing some info on female users. My experience has only been with high school american football players. Quite a self-perpetuating self-reinforcing group. Any suicides or dropouts are just examples of weakness.

Here's something that's tough to put up with in the world. If you put yourself on a trajectory where you're doing all the right things in the right order and compounding your achievements you're following an exponential growth curve. If you're taking all the shortcuts, doing only what will get you instant gratification, you're following (if you're lucky) a linear growth curve.

Look how much time you have to spend underneath the linear curve! And all that time the short term guy is ripping on you, lording over you. Takes some perserverance and belief to follow the exponential curve.

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Postby nanoking » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:44 pm

oops you're right, teaser intro to article...anybody have a sub?
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Postby Kaz » Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:45 pm

And all that time the short term guy is ripping on you, lording over you. Takes some perserverance and belief to follow the exponential curve.


I hadn't really been thinking of teenagers until I read your post. I'd been thinking of people getting into steroid use as adults. And you're right - the stress teenagers in this country (US) who are part of the "jock" culture is enormous.

Until I'd lived here a while I never understood just how incredibly strong a grip the whole "jocks and cheerleaders" school culture is. Kids do strictly police their social boundaries with a ferocity that adults often forget (or try to); they don't do it because "kids are cruel" - they do it because they unconsciously emulate adult behaviour, but do it without filters, and then feed into the cycle by emulating each other. The less emotionally mature the kids involved, the more ferocious the policing of boundaries. And then you have kids on US school teams placed under tremendous pressure because their competitions are being televised and their entrance to university may depend on a sports scholarship and they're being groomed for The Big Time... I find it amazing that any kid on a team or trying to get onto a team here has the character and willpower to resist temptation. Those kids have real guts.

I wonder how many adults using steroids in the US took up use as adults and how many as teenagers?
"An unexamined life is not worth living." - Socrates
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Postby Pete » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:25 pm

The question of steroids is tough. I don't use (you can tell that by the pic I think :D ), nor have I any interest to, but on the other hand, the civil libery of someone putting what they like into their own body comes up.
Whether a person uses or not should be up to themselves, but whether we talk about this on the list, I think, should be up to you, I'd say. A lot of the strength field is dominated by drugs (infact I go so far as to say that most of sport is dominated by steroid usage).
Maybe the fact that a person uses shouldn't disqualify them from parcipating in the board, but discussion of cycles, quantites etc should be taken to a more appropriate place :?:
I know we, as moderators, have been talking about what our view should be on this, but really it's you that have to decide what you want from the board & how far you'd want to take any discussions etc (I assume you'd want to know if someone was using, so you could take any training, diet etc & understand that a non-user has different needs).
My vote would be to allow users of steroids onto the board & allow them to say they use (if they wish to), but to keep details off of the board, as I think the majority wouldn't be interested in that kind of thread :?:
That's my take on things, but I'd accept it if people wanted tigher or looser controls, maybe JP or Roch could formulate some form of vote on what everyone wants, with total ban of the mention steroids, at one end, to no controls at the other (& a couple inbetween?).
What does everyone else think :?:
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