let's discuss Ground Fight here instead of "MMA questio

Styles, training, conditioning, equipment - everything related to Martial Arts.

Moderators: hardcore iv, fredrikw, JP, Rochellita, bronco

Postby Edison Carasio » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:57 pm

Gelert wrote:
Edison Carasio wrote:If anyone is willing to, I will. I am a believer in training the closest to real situations as safely as you can.

But this would imply that you would still need minor training on escapes.

In self defense, martial arts training can some times be of little use because you will become conditioned to a specific pattern of attack, and untrained assailants will not respond the same way. They will use methods deemed incorrect under your stand up fighting. Bruce Lee even said that untrained attackers can be unpredictable and difficult to respond to even for trained martial artists.


1. Absolutely. I'm glad to see that. I appreciate in these litigious times that it is difficult achieve though

2. Exactly. Minor training on escapes. Rather than the main focus. That can be covered in a few sessions max, and then applied subsequently. I'm glad that we seem to be arriving at a consensus that extensive ground skills have as much place in contacts with multiples or generally in the real world as legs on a snake.

3. Bruce said... Yeah, it's one of Murphy's laws of Combat, and a central tenet of what wise ones from Sun Tzu to Mao have had to say about fighting.

You make the good point that the people one has to defend oneself against in the real world are unlikely to be marital artists. On the other hand, as we all know, they are likely to be intoxicated with drugs and/or alcohol, mentally unstable, too high on adrenaline, anger, fear or lust. And not wearing a gi, either, unless you gatecrashed a fancy dress party. That both complicates and simplifies matters.

All this talk of hurting people made me look up the local MA classes. Interestingly, the local muay thai class has a compulsory run at the start. It's not just for the fitness, now is it?



I would like to state that I for one was never questioning the legitmacy of EXTENSIVE BJJ skills in self defense. That is akin to suicide. But I would also say that a karate-ka or gung fu fighter is also at as much a disadvantage as the Jiu Jitsu expert in a self defense situation. Many arts rely on movements from opponents that do not happen naturally, and only occur with in the art. In term of self defense, I would say "self defense" is an art in and of itself. But then one who is good at defending themselves would be weak in a sport enviroment, where the wrestler, jiu jitsu, or judo (to a lesser extent) fighter will be able to apply his skills without fear of outside intereference. That same can go for striker of course. On the ground they do not have to fear groin or eye destruction. They can work on defending strikes and submission attempts instead of guarding those AND foul tactics.
User avatar
Edison Carasio
Active Member
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:01 pm
Location: St. Louis

Postby Gelert » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:30 am

Edison Carasio wrote: In term of self defense, I would say "self defense" is an art in and of itself. But then one who is good at defending themselves would be weak in a sport enviroment.


Indeed. Seeing as we've been discussing real world applications, statistics and so forth in both threads, this is what I've been bringing to the table. I would have far less to say about an environment where crushing and tearing off testicles is frowned upon.

In the real world, I would argue that guarding against things is a sign that you have lost the initiative by not using enough speed, aggression and surprise to win the fight within seconds.

Lofty Wiseman (used to? - has his malaria got the better of him?) teach a sequence of blows known as the five second fight that could be used by nigh on anybody on anybody. Maybe a little too crude, but an interesting starting point. The only assumptions made were that you faced the attacker and s/he wasn't meaningfully armed, although with the slightest of modification, one could get within the reach of a weapon and ignore it, mainly because the user would have no chance to use it..

Out of interest, as other people have their ears to the ground far better than me to be able to answer this, but how many civilian self-defence type classes have they encountered which start off with the non-kinetic side - i.e. basics of personal security, observational skills and de-escalating confrontation?
User avatar
Gelert
Active Member
 
Posts: 6935
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:19 pm

Postby Edison Carasio » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:46 am

Self awareness and observation is the most important part of self defense, for women in particular. Fighting ability should come into play as a last resort. This skill of awareness, and correct me if I'm wrong, is taught before any moves in Krav Maga, MCMAP (Marine Corp. Martial Arts, the fighting system of the US Marine Corps) and Ninjutsu.
User avatar
Edison Carasio
Active Member
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:01 pm
Location: St. Louis

Postby No other way » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:57 am

Gelert wrote:
Edison Carasio wrote:2. Exactly. Minor training on escapes. Rather than the main focus. That can be covered in a few sessions max, and then applied subsequently. I'm glad that we seem to be arriving at a consensus that extensive ground skills have as much place in contacts with multiples or generally in the real world as legs on a snake.



i disagree 100%. i've been in real world fights. i've been in fights with a couple people at once. without knowledge of ground fighting i would have been hurt a lot more. you have to be able to attack while on the ground not just escape. who have to aware and knowledgeable of threats on the ground. you can see it in all the old gracie challenge videos where guys wouldn't even know they were putting themselves in danger by moving a certain way. you have to know a lot. submissions in real life aren't just submissions. they devastating attacks to unarm the person you are fighting. while an armbar would be a bad idea in a real fight guillotines have come in handy a lot. i'm just amazed that people still refuse the effectiveness of ground fighting. plus not all ground fighting is armbars and sweeps there are definitely strikes too.
User avatar
No other way
Active Member
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: rva, sUeSA

Postby Edison Carasio » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:09 am

I don't think I have said that ground fighting was useless out side of escaping. Like I said, I personally train in all areas equally. Foul tactics, striking, clinching, sweeps/takedowns, ground fighting and weapons.
User avatar
Edison Carasio
Active Member
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:01 pm
Location: St. Louis

Postby Crash » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:29 am

Edison Carasio wrote:Self awareness and observation is the most important part of self defense, for women in particular. Fighting ability should come into play as a last resort.

Imo next to awareness of your surroundings, the most important part of self defense is where you're coming from mentally. All the knowledge in the world will not help if you are not willing to defend yourself. In other words, when I first started training I didn't want to hurt anyone and cringed from it, but I had to get the mindset that I don't want to hurt anyone, but I will defend myself and it's either them or me, etc.
No other way wrote: i disagree 100%. i've been in real world fights. i've been in fights with a couple people at once. without knowledge of ground fighting i would have been hurt a lot more. you have to be able to attack while on the ground not just escape. who have to aware and knowledgeable of threats on the ground. you can see it in all the old gracie challenge videos where guys wouldn't even know they were putting themselves in danger by moving a certain way. you have to know a lot. submissions in real life aren't just submissions. they devastating attacks to unarm the person you are fighting. while an armbar would be a bad idea in a real fight guillotines have come in handy a lot. i'm just amazed that people still refuse the effectiveness of ground fighting. plus not all ground fighting is armbars and sweeps there are definitely strikes too.

+1 8)
Demolisher of faces and my enemies beards (no matter where they are located) since 2002.

www.PCRM.org
Click here to help homeless animals.

All truth goes through 3 stages - 1st it's ridiculed. Then it's violently opposed. Finally it's accepted as self-evident.
User avatar
Crash
Active Member
 
Posts: 3317
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:51 pm
Location: U.S.A.

Postby SpugFab » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:20 am

No other way wrote:i disagree 100%. i've been in real world fights. i've been in fights with a couple people at once.

What are you doing to get yourself into these situations man?

For me the importance I place on ground fighting can be summed up by looking at the percentages.

Chance of getting into a fight (tiny)
x
Chance of fighting someone I can't beat currently (infinitesimal)
x
Chance of fighting someone I couldn't beat currently but could with some training

When I plug these numbers into the computer it tells me that the chance of serious injury from training ground fighting is actually greater than the chance of it having a positive impact.
User avatar
SpugFab
Active Member
 
Posts: 4526
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:35 pm
Location: Frankfurt am Main

Postby Gelert » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:53 am

No other way wrote:
i disagree 100%. i've been in real world fights. i've been in fights with a couple people at once.



As I've alluded to elsewhere, and not being overly proud or wishing to brag about it, you're not the only one, obviously :wink:
User avatar
Gelert
Active Member
 
Posts: 6935
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:19 pm

Postby Gelert » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:57 am

spug_myers wrote:When I plug these numbers into the computer it tells me that the chance of serious injury from training ground fighting is actually greater than the chance of it having a positive impact.


Agreed - some sense of proportion is always worthwhile!
User avatar
Gelert
Active Member
 
Posts: 6935
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:19 pm

Postby tempehmomma » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:24 am

spug_myers wrote:For me the importance I place on ground fighting can be summed up by looking at the percentages.

Chance of getting into a fight (tiny)
x
Chance of fighting someone I can't beat currently (infinitesimal)
x
Chance of fighting someone I couldn't beat currently but could with some training
Is that because you're a badass mofo who can take care of business if you need too?
tempehmomma
Active Member
 
Posts: 2451
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:49 pm

Postby Gelert » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:34 am

Notice the key word the spugster is using

chance

He's not saying he's a the evilest bastard in the whole damn valley of the shadow of death and thus fears no evil, though he may well be, he's just aware of the relative risks and conditional probabilities involved.

Side note from an earlier point: Edison, define awareness - I think that is distinct from observation. Awareness is what one needs when in a fight, observation helps you spot it coming and thus evade it.

But neither MCMAP, KM or the art formerly known as ninjutsu spend a key amount of time on maintaining personal security, nevertheless.

It's a lot more fun to consider the "kinetic" skills as the first line of defence rather than the last, of course.
User avatar
Gelert
Active Member
 
Posts: 6935
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:19 pm

Postby Edison Carasio » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:53 pm

Gelert wrote:Notice the key word the spugster is using

chance

He's not saying he's a the evilest bastard in the whole damn valley of the shadow of death and thus fears no evil, though he may well be, he's just aware of the relative risks and conditional probabilities involved.

Side note from an earlier point: Edison, define awareness - I think that is distinct from observation. Awareness is what one needs when in a fight, observation helps you spot it coming and thus evade it.

But neither MCMAP, KM or the art formerly known as ninjutsu spend a key amount of time on maintaining personal security, nevertheless.

It's a lot more fun to consider the "kinetic" skills as the first line of defence rather than the last, of course.


I use Awareness in the sense that I mean of being aware of what is around you. Routes of escape, shady people, people not looking you in the eye when walking by or those who approach you with hands in pockets and the like. Maybe we interpret the word Awareness different in this context due to difference in languange between cultures (North America/Europe).
User avatar
Edison Carasio
Active Member
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:01 pm
Location: St. Louis

Re: let's discuss Ground Fight here instead of "MMA que

Postby ^toby^ » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:13 pm

Edison Carasio wrote:And My Bloody Valentine, I also agree with you. In a one on one fight, something such as an arm trap achieved from block a punch and making the sweep is something I would utilize in self defense. Just in sparring MMA I have been able to do simple captures on wide hooks or slow hooks and work a take down. In survival fighting, this type of capture would have resulted in the attacker's eyes or throat being struck and him being swept while I retain control over the arm for a shoulder or elbow break.


I have never involved in a fight since I practised Kung Fu. I'm not sure how would I react standing up/laying down.

I wouldn't wanna be in a fight like this:
http://hungkuen.net/article-bigfight.htm
'Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect Practice makes perfect' - Vince Lombardi
User avatar
^toby^
Active Member
 
Posts: 1792
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:46 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Previous

Return to Martial Arts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest