Estrogen

[veganjkd]

Hey guys/girls.

I am pretty much new to `bodybuilding`/strength building as in the main i train martial arts and use kettle bells.

however at 37 i have decided to try and `get big`.One the things i have read( including the stuff on mike mahler`s site)is the mention of estrogen and the use of estrogen blockers as having a beneficial affect.
what is the validty of the claims that a diet with a lot of soy can increase estrogen levels in males?

I want to get off to a good start and i am aware that my test levels with increase with regular building routines but any added science can only help!
Does/as any one ever used any estrogen blockers or know the reality of the soy/estrogen story?
thanks!

[buzz]

Wouldn't think too much about the soy thing, it seems to be so vague/disproven that it's not worth worrying about imo. As for estrogen blockers, not a great idea really, as when test levels rise estrogen levels will rise with them, and if you block the estrogen the test will become more prominent in your body, but you are basically throwing off your body's natural balance. Higher estrogen levels in line with higher test levels will not stop you from making good gains.

[veganjkd]

Thanks for the reply,
i came a cross loads of supposed estrogen blockers including one;Androstatreine-3 that supposedly causes a "permanent and irreversable" block on estrogen production!
one assumes that can only be a bad thing! .

[buzz]

Thanks for the reply,
i came a cross loads of supposed estrogen blockers including one;Androstatreine-3 that supposedly causes a "permanent and irreversable" block on estrogen production!
one assumes that can only be a bad thing! .

Hmm, I don't know it specifically, but yeah, I'd be pretty wary of anything that blocked it irreversably!! :-O

[aliquis]

Yeah, after 37 years of not training you better start with steroids. All or nothing, time to get huge.. gogoo *cheers*

[veganjkd]

Yeah, after 37 years of not training you better start with steroids. All or nothing, time to get huge.. gogoo *cheers*

I have trained in martial arts for many years,(Judo,muay thai, jeet kune do,Gracie jiu jitsu,filipino kali) lots of running ,trekking and Kettle bells.
I have no interest in getting huge but an interest in muscle building.

i was prompted by the stuff that mike mahler has to say regarding estrogen levels on his site.I have no interest in estrogen blockers or other such strangeness but was interested to see if other vegan buildier have had cause to use them and what they had to say or what other people thought of vegan athletes promoting such ideas.

[jemmyducks]

Soy only messes up your sex hormones if you consume a Huge quantity. A few servings per day is not going to be a problem.

[daisy]

check this out:
http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewt ... highlight=

[veganjkd]

I dont really worry about too much soy even though i have a bunch of tempeh,tofu,soy milk,soy protiens etc.!

[JP]

Soy only messes up your sex hormones if you consume a Huge quantity. A few servings per day is not going to be a problem.

hey just out of interest, if you only have a limited amount of receptors, how would the quantity of soya make any difference? And especially if they compete with your bodys own oestrogens?

[Pete]

Hi JP
I think you're asking the wrong question. You obviously have enough estrogen receptors to develop female sexual characterists, ask any trans-sexual, they just dump a load of hormones into themselves & they develop breasts.
The question should be how ingested (not injected) hormones work & how, if any they differ from phyto-estrogen that are ingested.
I believe no one is claiming that milk from animals affects you're sexual aspect (making a male more female), milk is loaded with female hormones & yet ingesting them does not seem to affect the male body - & people have drunk a lot of milk!!! I've not got the same library of research that is was in my old computer, but here's a bit that mentions the large amount of estrogens in modern milk ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1612 ... stractplus )
OK, so we've got to accept that ingested estrogens either do not promote, or have very little effect on the male physiology; this or milk has some 'special', undiscovered property that stops this estrogen being utilised.
So, what about phyto-estrogens? These are chemicals that have a similar chemical structure to estrogen, but are not the same substance. There are several types of research out there at the moment, from what I can see. Basically one type separates out tons of the phyto-estrogens & force-feed some poor creature massive amounts, this will of course give negative results, try that with separated estrogen from cows milk & you’d get an even more pronounced response! Most research done using soya & not separated phyto-estrogens give the phyto-estrogens an anti-estrogen type effect, that is they block any receptors that are active & work much less effectively than a true estrogen would.
Now, that doesn’t mean you should go on a soya binge, but if you treat soya as just another food, then you will not get any negative effect (unless you have allergies to soya etc).
If you are concerned about estrogen-type substances in your food, then steer clear of animal milk, meat from female animals & injecting yourself with estrogen (or too much testosterone as it will convert & you’ll be wearing bitch-tits!). Eating a normal amount of soya products aren’t really a worry.

[mikemahler]

First of all if you have never had your estrogen levels checked then you do not know where you are at and taking anything is a waste of money.

If you have high estradiol and estrone levels as a man then you should be concerned and act accordingly. However, you want to base this on science not conjecture.

The androstene product you mentioned is called 6 OXO and while it increases T levels it can also increase Estrone levels. It has never been shown to lower any estrogen levels. Why it is marketed as an estrogen blocker is beyond me. It has been show to increase T levels a great deal. However, it is a hormone and not something to play around with without medical supervision (blood tests etc)

However you feel about Soy, just keep in mind it is not a necessary part of the vegan diet. Regarding fake meat products, they are all without exception overly processes crap and should be minimized or avoided all together. Look at the sodium content and all of the artificial ingredients. I rest my case.

Mike

[aliquis]

Soy affecting estrogen or not I wouldn't play with my hormon levels except thru my owns body reaction.

[deavman]

Additional piece of info:
Something that all the soy bashers (Weston Price Institute, Mercola and the like) should take in consideration. A 20 some years long study about the effects of phyto-estrogens in soy based infant formula on 1500 male babies, recently ended was and published here in Israel . It conclusively found that there was no measurable difference between those fed with soy, mother's milk or cow's milk. Those babies were followed for over 20 years until they eventually grew up to be young men and were found with no statistically relevant difference from the milk-fed ones. Last month, the Israeli Health Ministry removed the soy products maximum comsumption recommendations that were enacted in 2003, concluding years of fear-monging and misrepresentation by special interests.
The anti-soy propaganda is sometimes overwhelming and with enough money(Think beef lobby) and so-called nutrition experts to repeat the mantra time after time, it becomes the accepted standard. Let's be a little more circumspect on all the hype being pushed on us. This also should include statements made on the supposed health benefits of the herb of the day.

[wannalift]

Additional peice of info:
Something that all the soy bashers (Weston Price Institute, Mercola and the like) should take in consideration. A 20 some years long study about the effects of phyto-estrogens in soy based infant formula on 1500 male babies, recently ended was and published here in Israel . It conclusively found that there was no measurable difference between those fed with soy, mother's milk or cow's milk. Those babies were followed for over 20 years until they eventually grew up to be young men and were found with no statistically relevant difference from the milk-fed ones. Last month, the Israeli Health Ministry removed the soy products maximum comsuption recommendations that were enacted in 2003, concluding years of fear-monging and misrepresentation by special interests.
The anti-soy propaganda is sometimes overwhelming and with enough money(Think beef lobby) and so-called nutrition experts to repeat the mantra time after time, it becomes the accepted standard. Let's be a little more circumspect on all the hype being pushed on us. This also should include statements made on the supposed health benefits of the herb of the day.

any chance you can get us a link to that study so i can post about it on other boards?