Strength vs bodybuilding?

[Oak]

Hallo,

I am wanting to build up my strength and avoid as much bulking as possible.

I am a bit confused as to the function of the amount of Reps and Sets. Is there any answer. I have been told by fitness instucters different things.

I was put on a programme of 2x12 for all my weights, then i was told that if i wanted just strength that i should decrease my reps and increase my weight. Until eventually i am down to 4 reps.

The other thing i have been told is the higher the reps the more bulk. The lower the reps the more strength.

Then i was told that 8 reps is the maximum bulk and i should avoid this and do 1x12 then a heavier weight of 1x6.

Another instucter told me that i should be doing 3 sets of between 8-10 reps.
One last thing i was told is that if you do weights do exhuastion of the muscle this will build strength if you do not then it will just tone.

Any conformation of this confusion or a way out of it would be appreciated.
Is this an indefinite science.
Oak

[pazios2002]

well more then reps and weight, for me anyways, I have found that calories seem to be the determinate of how much muscular size I put on.

Despite doing Low reps high weight or high reps low weight, I have increased or decreased my muscular size with a change of calories.

Ofcourse the difference in muscle types that I have could be different then yours.

I always tell people to try 3 weeks of this or that and see the effect that it has on them.

For me 3 weeks is about the time I am looking for a change,

[Shinobi]

There are two ways in which muscles adapt to overloads and increase strength. The first is by incresing the rate, amount and synchonisation of motor neuron firing. The second is by enlarging (hypertophy) of the muscle cell. (As the proteins in the muscle that make it contract become large, they can handle more weight.)

So, increasing strength without hypertrophy is a contradiction. I'm afraid that if you want to lift big, then you have to get bigger. Now, it's said that an ideal hypertrophy rep range is around 10-12 reps which means that a balance between musclar strength and endurance is being worked. Nevertheless, there will be some hypertrophy occuring no matter what rep range is used. Some people may find they hypertrophy easier on lower reps and some on higher. It depends on genetic factors such as the ratio of fast and slow twitch fibers in the individual's muscle.

Strength is actually a broad term, it refers to absolute strength which measures how much weight you can lift for one repetition, and it refers to muscular endurance with is how long a mucle can continue to contract (this can further be divided into static and dynamic endurance.)

So to try and answer your question I need to know what it is that you want. How much emphasis do you want to place on endurance and how much on strength? If you wanted as little endurance as possible then you would do one rep of the heaviest weight you could possible lift, if you wanted a balance then 10-12 reps would be best, if you wanted a large emphasis on endurance then 20-30 reps would be done. (hell, if you wanted you could do 100 reps.) So, you have to decide what you want taking into consideration that strength is a multi faceted aspect of our muscle.

As for sets, 1 set is good 2 is better and 3 is better still, but after 3 sets the degree of additional benefit starts to diminish. What I can say is that you should ensure that you rest at least two minutes between sets in order to replenish your muscles phospho-creatine stores, which is the primary fuel used for low rep high weight contractions.

So, hopefully that's all clear as mud, in the dark whist wearing sunglasses.

Please ask if you want anything clarified.

[Malcolms Billy]

So, increasing strength without hypertrophy is a contradiction. I'm afraid that if you want to lift big, then you have to get bigger.

I'm not sure if this is where the difference between men and women comes in, but the female UK powerlifting champion, Pat Reeves, is not huge by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe other people are able to clarify the difference, also as to lifting, better than me, but as far as I can see, gaining strength doesn't necessarily mean bulking up. In fact, a vegan personal trainer I know, once told me that gaining muscle mass in a big way is 70% diet. Off course you will gain muscle mass if you're lifting big, but I'm talking about becoming really massive.

See ya,
Billy

[JP]

Personally i believe that getting bigger muscles is down to diet. But first a disclaimer: when someone starts lifting for the first time i think shinobis point is true and muscles will grow almost by just looking at the barbell.

But as you start getting a few years of lifting under your belt things are not so cut and dry anymore. Like Billy mentioned powerlifters can get unbelievably strong without mass gains, they need to avoid mass gains so they can stay in their weight category.

But then have a look at olympic lifters and powerlifters from the heaviest weight category. These people do not have to avoid muscle mass gains and they are massive. With a low bodyfat % many powerlifters and olympic lifters could compare to professional bodybuilders. Take a look at last years strongest man winner Mariusz Pudzianowski - he looks like a pro bodybuilder! And how do they train? Very low reps, sometimes just triples and singles and they go heavy.

In my opinion low reps are best for muscle mass gains as well as strength gains, so why not just get best of both worlds. If you don't want to put on any muscle mass you just need to control your diet.

[Oak]

O.K. this all seems a bit easier than i thought.

So controlling diet, i guess this means not consuming too much excess calories, is the real key.

So what should i be aiming for - just not eating more than i need?
I once went to a dietician when i was a teenager and they were amazed that i was so active on so few calories.

I am Male, 25years old and work out 3x a week - oh - i weigh 170lbs (78kg?). I eat almost exclusively raw foods.

I'll put my workout on the website too!

I am aiming for good all round strength - i love to do all the decathlon events. (except pole vault - which i have never done). I really enjoy the long jump and the javalin throw (which i'm rubbish at).

The reason why i don't want to get to big - is that i don't want it to interfere with any negotiating career that i might have. I mean i don't want to look intimidating.

I saw a sprinter not so long ago doing these huge dumbell presses and his pecs weren't too big. That's were i got the idea that i might be able to be just as strong but not as big as i could get.

Some amazing advice.
I'm really interested in the science of it all.
Thankyou so much,
Oak

[Malcolms Billy]

Hi Oak,

considering the amount of cardio you do, you'll be hard pressed to get really big anyway. Most athletes I know push a fair amount of weight, but still aren't considered 'huge'. I'd definitely wouldn't want to aim for less calories than you're using, seeing as you sound like you've got a very active lifestyle, and your muscles will need nutrients in order to be able to meet increasing demands - like lifting heavier weights. Speaking as a total non-rawfoodist, it would seem hard to me to over eat on a predominantly raw food diet, though. Why not check out this link: http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/pat.htm Pat Reeves has held her title as British Powerlifting Champion for an amazing 13 times in a row - on a raw food diet! Robbie Hazeley - also on this board, as is Pat - also adheres to a raw food diet (except when I come along with chocolate cake, seems to compromise everything! ). I'm sure you'll find lots of useful stuff on that site too.

What career are you looking for, that you don't want to look intimidating, and is that your main reason for not wanting to bulk up too much?
Just smile! I know a few massive guys who look ever so friendly. It's the skinny weasly guys with the drippy, shifty looks I don't trust!

See ya,
Billy

[Shinobi]

"The reason why i don't want to get to big - is that i don't want it to interfere with any negotiating career that i might have. I mean i don't want to look intimidating."

Looking intimidating helps a negotioating career.

It's always possible that you can find people that are not huge by bodybuilding standards that are extremly strong, Bruce Lee for instance. That's because size is not the only factor affecting muscular strength. As I said before, the efficiency of the motor neuron actions in the muscle is the first adaption in the muscle that increses strength. Maybe some individuals are geneticly gifted in their neuron efficiency and don't need as much size as others to lift the same weight.

[Oak]

I think that for a while at least i have space to experiment - see where my genetics take me.
I am 6'2 so probably have a bit of space to work with before i being lucky enoungh to start even looking bigger.

So how do motor neurons become more efficeint. Do they just learn (the lazy things! Get reading!) or do they use more nutrients to pass along the info.

How do you build up to doing small reps of heavy weights? Do you just do it. or do you have to condition your muscles first?

So would a body builder eat loads o'food.
Where as someone wanting to stay in their weight class (Boxers, martial artist etc) control their diet.

Interesting that there are some well known raw foodie weight lifters.

It could be a bore to go into too much, but diplomacy is quite a risky career hence the thinking carefully about size. Hope no one minds helping me plan my weightlifting regime.

Oak

[Malcolms Billy]

It could be a bore to go into too much, but diplomacy is quite a risky career hence the thinking carefully about size. Hope no one minds helping me plan my weightlifting regime.

As for size, look where Arnie Schwarzenegger's looks have got him!

See ya,
Billy

[Shinobi]

Motor neuron firing becomes more efficient by recruting more motor neurons, recruting them in synch.

[Pete]

The best way to keep of excessive mass (is there such a thing ) is to do the opposite of mass building in a bodybuilding. Control your calorific intake & keep your cardio up. In my opinion that would be the best way to keep the extra muscle off.
Low rep is often said to cause less muscle growth than higher reps (singles, doubles & triples at most). But I'd say diet & CV is are more important factors. Genetics will also play a part, if you're an easy gainer, then you'll put on mass even doing these things, but if you're average or below, then this should work.

[Shinobi]

Pete is right. Doing lots of cardio (which conditions slow twitch fibers) can interfere with fast twitch fiber development. Unfortunatly this would interfere with strength gains.

BTW. What do you consider too big? Why not just get big? You won't look like a pro bodybuilder unless you do steriods anyway. Maybe you should just train normally and see if you start getting "too big". You may or may not have the genetics to get freaky huge.

[Oak]

Thanks everyone!

I think that Shinobis right. I may as well work out and see where it takes me - i don't mind getting bigger muscles - does anyone really - and probably not going to ever get huge anyway. Spend far too much time reading.

Too big for me, i think, would be like anywhere near those huge guys that do the strength competitions. (Too big a target for an assassin if ever do any dodgy negotiating ).
The thing is these guys have been training heavy for years. Not something that i would ever probably get to do.
The thing is when i am at the Gym, i really go for it. Sometimes i have been doing a bench press and been pusing it for 10secs until it moves.

My cardio does tend to involve quite a bit of muscle work too - i tend to run hard and fast. I hope to have a nice balance between fast and slow twitch. So that i can do lot's of physical activity.
I'm thinking of taking up some rock climbing - not convinced that my grip is good enough yet though.

I have just cut down my calorie intake a bit over the past 2 months as well to lose 5 pounds. 175-170. Sucess! So maybe i won't eat as much as i used to. To many dates and avocados! .
Although Billy can pop by anytime to temp me with some chocolate cake!

I think out of personal interest i'll document size gains in my training log every so often.
My legs aren't huge but i can squat more than my friends with bigger legs.

How do people react to all you big guys?
Oak

[Shinobi]

I'm not big. But fairly cut and athletic. I was born an ectomorph so getting feakishly massive is not really possible for me unless I used juice. Hmmm, I reckon I'd have a physique like Spiderman in the movie when he wakes up and flexes his new found muscles in front of the mirror.