Target: Transvulcania

[JP]

1) Start with the hips low (just above parallel)
2) Shoulders over the bar
3) Hips and shoulders rise at the same rate until the bar is past the knees - if the hips rise first you have to stop
4) Shoulders stay over the bar until legs are almost straight
5) Tight arch in the lower back, chest stays up throughout - if the chest drops or you lose your arch you have to stop
6) No dragging the bar up the legs
7) Full reset on each rep, no touch and go

thats pretty much how i deadlift. And many guys at my gym.

[baldy]

Seems like a lot of rules just waiting to be broken. Will give them a go on my deload week and see how it feels. Might help strengthen my back and improve my form.

Rule 6, is rubbing ok? When I get down there it is pretty cramped.

[ninearms]

1) Start with the hips low (just above parallel)
2) Shoulders over the bar
3) Hips and shoulders rise at the same rate until the bar is past the knees - if the hips rise first you have to stop
4) Shoulders stay over the bar until legs are almost straight
5) Tight arch in the lower back, chest stays up throughout - if the chest drops or you lose your arch you have to stop
6) No dragging the bar up the legs
7) Full reset on each rep, no touch and go

thats pretty much how i deadlift. And many guys at my gym.

Doesn't look like it to me mate. With your build the grip and stance is too narrow to get the hips down and still have the shoulders over the bar. Your hips move up a good 8 inches before the bar leaves the ground, simply because of the length of your arms, never mind the 250kg on the bar. If it was the case I'd expect you to be squatting at least 240, because the leverages for a clean dead and a back squat are almost identical - a clean dead is effectively a squat with the bar held in the hands until it passes the knees.

[ninearms]

Seems like a lot of rules just waiting to be broken. Will give them a go on my deload week and see how it feels. Might help strengthen my back and improve my form.

Rule 6, is rubbing ok? When I get down there it is pretty cramped.

Bar should be over the metatarsals at the start and should not touch the legs until about mid thigh (bar is pulled towards the lifter using the lats).

This covers it in a lot of detail.

[JP]

dude, teh differences are MINUTE! check out my 250 dead vid at 8seconds mark, the difference to the pic you posted is minimal angle degree difference to what i have.

And the squatting comparison... can you squat the numbers relative to your "clean deadlift"?

OK, taking into the account the minute differences, that does explain how my back squat used to be so close to my deadlift. When i squatted 220 my deadlift was 235 i think. The deadlift has crept away from the squat for the simple reason that i havent been back squatting with the same focus that i used to.

Travis deadlifts 245 but his back squat is better than mine has ever been and front squat above 200 - again, sounds like exactly how you describe it.

Anyway, point being, plenty of guys deadlift the way you describe.

[ninearms]

dude, teh differences are MINUTE! check out my 250 dead vid at 8seconds mark, the difference to the pic you posted is minimal angle degree difference to what i have.

Dude, you might think they're minute, but they're certainly not! Your hips are higher, your shoulders are in front of the bar, your upper back is rounded, your lower back doesn't have a tight arch. If the differences were so minute that they didn't matter then you'd have another plate on either side and Dimas would have cleaned your 250kg.

Steiner at the knees:



JP at the knees:



Look at Steiner's back angle in the first 5 frames - identical from floor to knees.

And the squatting comparison... can you squat the numbers relative to your "clean deadlift"?

Before I started 5/3/1 and was still back squatting heavy my back squat was actually slightly higher than my clean dead.

Travis deadlifts 245 but his back squat is better than mine has ever been and front squat above 200 - again, sounds like exactly how you describe it.

By Travis do you mean Adam?

Anyway, point being, plenty of guys deadlift the way you describe.

And how many of those guys are ex-lemon? I bet Fat Pete doesn't pull like that, because you can't put as much weight on the bar. Clegg certainly doesn't pull like that if his 300x5 vid is anything to go by.

[JP]

thats a snatch picture though so cant compare, by physics alone if he had a clean grip the upper back would be at a much higher angle when bar was at knees.

Aye, Adam. And true, many of them are lemon guys who i am referring to, kev for instance. And shaun cleggs, whose max deadlift is level with his squat. But no one ever calls anything a "clean deadlift". Its just a way some people feel more comfortable pulling.

My deadlift style is closer to them than to many powerlifter guys and other strongmen. My failures are all on the floor much like these ex weightlifters, whereas many guys can pull 20 kg above their pb to the knees but cant get it locked out.

So while the differences are of course there, i said "thats pretty much how i deadlift", "pretty much" meaning that there are small differences, which escape uninitiated and untrained eyes like mine

[JP]

and hey, my first part of the clean pull is identical to the deadlft to the knees, so am i deadlifting wrong, or cleaning wrong

i think option c. I am doing both wrong

[ninearms]

thats a snatch picture though so cant compare, by physics alone if he had a clean grip the upper back would be at a much higher angle when bar was at knees.

That's as may be (although the difference in angle between the snatch and the clean isn't actually that great because lifters tend to adopt a slightly wider stance in the snatch to compensate), but the hips still start lower and the back angle doesn't change from floor to knee, which is the important detail. It's a biomechanically inefficient movement, but one which is critical to deliver the bar to the correct position above the knees. Whereas if you look at your 250 even though you drop your hips at the start (and your shoulders are actually behind the bar) they automatically revert to the most biomechanically efficient position (hips way above parallel, shoulders out in front of the bar) in order to get the bar off the floor.

[ninearms]

and hey, my first part of the clean pull is identical to the deadlft to the knees, so am i deadlifting wrong, or cleaning wrong

i think option c. I am doing both wrong

There's no right way to deadlift - whatever gets the most weight up without putting you in hospital!

[npx]

However:

1) Start with the hips low (just above parallel)
2) Shoulders over the bar
3) Hips and shoulders rise at the same rate until the bar is past the knees - if the hips rise first you have to stop
4) Shoulders stay over the bar until legs are almost straight
5) Tight arch in the lower back, chest stays up throughout - if the chest drops or you lose your arch you have to stop
6) No dragging the bar up the legs
7) Full reset on each rep, no touch and go

Still up for the challenge baldmeister?

Nice that someone says something I can agree on, most of the movies I have seen on this board just reminds me about.

[ninearms]

Sunday 06/12/09

5/3/1 deload week.

A) Clean
30/3x3
40/3
47.5/3
52.5/3
57.5/3
60/3
65/3x2

B) Clean pull
72.5/5x3

C) Strict press 7.4
Bar/10
30/8
40/5

D) Hanging leg raises
BW/10x5

[JP]

you met any other lifters at the gym yet, is there any kind of lifting crews going?

(my final strategy... )

[ninearms]

you met any other lifters at the gym yet, is there any kind of lifting crews going?

(my final strategy... )

As if! My gym is full of weakling rowers. Other than a guy who came in the other day and pulled 245kgx3 pretty much everyone else couldn't hit depth squatting 2 plates a side. The strong guys all train in the other room downstairs (saw some little guy benching 4 plates a side when I looked round before the move), but there's only one platform in there and no Eleiko bars. Mind you, I train first thing in the morning, so there might be less weak people coming in later. Going to nail a session at my mate's Oly club when I'm over for Xmas though.

[XkillerX]

Niners -

for somebody who has studied, read and tested all things related to nutrition, training, technique and procedures, sticks to them fanatically and you keep expanding your library of knowledge,

your results are lagging by far!!!!!