Noisy Cycling 2009 - It's Cyclocross Season - wahoo!

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Postby Dave Noisy » Tue May 26, 2009 4:35 am

[quote="fredrikw"][quote="Mr. Cleetus"][quote="Dave Noisy"]Hey, i thought that link was pretty cool, get commenting you slackers!


do you really use miles?!? :P


indeed, this made me so nauseous that I couldn't post anything...

I don't, obviously. Check the top right corner...sheeesh..!!!

Slackers.

Raced my first Super-D yesterday, it was pretty neat!

Got a respectable time of 10:45, tho i rode fairly conservatively.

I was the only person in spandex, sans-body armor, and on a 29er...hehehe

Very different crowd than i'm accustomed to! Only a few XC people... Disappointed in the local MTB scene, the turnout was very low.

The carnage was insane..some broken body parts, but TONS of flats, broken chains and frames...wowwee...

Finished 6th in Intermediate, although it was rife with sandbaggers, the two top riders would have placed in the Top 5 in Expert!!!!

Going to do my first TT of the year tomorrow...should be interesting..
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Tue May 26, 2009 4:46 am

Super D + TT. Perfect combination. I suspect you will win the prize for the best combined placing in the two.
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Postby Dave Noisy » Fri May 29, 2009 6:50 pm

[quote="Mr. Cleetus"]Super D + TT. Perfect combination. I suspect you will win the prize for the best combined placing in the two.

Absolutely, esp. since i'm about the only person to do both. ;)

TT effort was a mixed bag:

Image

My position is pretty good, i'll be lowering the elbows a bit more, so pretty flat.

I got a new wattage PB for the course: 266w, yet another one of my worst-ever times: 27:27. Averaged just over 38kph!! Awful! (PB was just under 26, and that was maybe THREE years ago now!)

Wind was hitting you in the face BOTH WAYS somehow..most people rode fairly poor times..ahh well.

Have been slacking off in my 300w efforts, will be picking that back up. MTB racing is pretty much done for me for the year, so now i'm thinking i'm going to spend the next few months prepping for cyclocross...which will be mainly TT-type intervals.

Hey, when doing 2x20's, what's the rest between efforts?

Also downloaded WKO+, but i've discovered there's no easy way to import files from PowerAgent (PowerTap's software). I basically have to export each day, and attach a date to it...!! WTF??? I have like 2yrs of data...there's no freaking way i'm going to do that 200+ times!! I'm thinking i might just stay with PowerAgent...
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Fri May 29, 2009 7:52 pm

If you listen to Coggan the break in the 2x20s is pretty much just a mental break, so short is good. When doing them regularly I have tended to do 1-2 mins. When struggling I have probably gone up as much as 5. Give 1 to 2 a try, you might be surprised that it does more than you would guess.

For poweragent, have a look at the Wattage forum. If thats the only way to do it, I'd be really surprised if someone hasnt come up with some sort of batch script to do it.
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Postby Dave Noisy » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:27 am

Hey dude - i guess all the other riders have taken the summer off?? So quiet!!
[quote="Mr. Cleetus"]If you listen to Coggan the break in the 2x20s is pretty much just a mental break, so short is good. When doing them regularly I have tended to do 1-2 mins. When struggling I have probably gone up as much as 5. Give 1 to 2 a try, you might be surprised that it does more than you would guess.

Utter failure last night! Since the TT is pretty much at/above threshold, waiting a few mins (i gave it 5) won't be enough time...it was awful, and i gave up after 5mins..haha.. I guess i'll just have to go TT and pretty much leave it at that and get a solid ride home. ;)

[quote]For poweragent, have a look at the Wattage forum. If thats the only way to do it, I'd be really surprised if someone hasnt come up with some sort of batch script to do it.

Do you mean the Googlegroups forum? I'm on there, and posted a note there, as well as on the WKO/Trainingpeaks website, no dice. Post the URL if there's a different site...

Was sent two really good URL's:

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm

http://www.biketechreview.com/performan ... d_down.htm

The second one links to a follow-up item, be sure to read it too.

The best thing i got out of it was this: it isn't quite as necessary to spend long periods at above threshold, but that it 'adds up'.

The 4x8mins@300w (threshold is ~275w for me) might be setting myself up for failure for most days (unless i'm super-fresh).

However, there's no reason i can't break it up: 8x4mins should give me the same benefits, and i'm much more likely to succeed in holding 300w for 32mins than the other way around.

In other news, rode the TT again last night, couldn't resist as conditions were nearly PERFECT. 29C, almost no wind.

Got my best time in the last couple years: 26:06. Split time was perfect: 13:03.

So i took nearly 1.5mins off my last effort. Guess what my wattage was - it was 266w last time.....

WRONG.

258w.

WTF??? I can see it being faster because of the conditions, but not THAT much faster!! That's nearly 5% less effort, and 5% faster.....??!

TT's are insane.

I must admit, i did something different that i haven't done for quite a while - on the short climb and coming out of the two corners (all done twice) i got out of the saddle in order to maintain/pick-up speed as much as possible....up in the 600w range, which was prolly higher than i should have gone, although i did 'what felt good'.

Interestingly, looking at the graphs, i do get my speed up very quickly that way, where-as last week it took a significant amount of time (15-30 seconds) to get my speed back up otherwise...so will have to compare with this style of effort in the future..

I'm also enjoying WKO+ - the Normalized Power feedback is good for the soul, and TSS is prolly going to be very useful.....although oddly i haven't gotten a score above 200, although i'm not sure what 'threshold' number i'm supposed to plug in, my 8min (a la CTS), or 20min or 60min..haha.. I'll check the help file i guess. ;)

Anyway, very happy to get my time close to cracking 26min again...

Will be trying out the 8x4min@300w tomorrow. =)
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Postby flightlessbirds » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:04 pm

Congrats on the TT personal best and thanks for writing all about it! I'm doing my first TT this weekend... Eddy Merckx style :)

Have fun with those intervals. They sound pretty brutal.
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:51 pm

whew, looks like you were just save there from talking to only a triathlete!

...yup, I meant the googlegroups one.

I think you are kinda going about the 2x20s wrong - if you are looking at a longer TT than 20 mins. They are supposed to be around FTP or CP60. Which is about what you'd hold for a 40km or for an hour - and thats what threshold means in that case.

It is best to see what you can do for the 2x20 instead of picking a target (eg 300) and trying for that and extending the rest until you can make it. If you can only do 290 for the 2x20 + rest, and you do that you will start building to increased watts over the sessions. And you are correct, they should be pretty hard! It is not a pleasant experience by any means. Then there are other ideas about it being at less than threshold.

If you are training for something shorter, than maybe 2x20s are not appropriate and you should be doing something shorter, eh?

I am not sure I would say 8x4 is the same as 4x8 - a lot more rest in the 8x4's. Thats not to say I think you are wrong to do the 8x4's. What's your goal with these? Did you mean you did a proper TT and then tried to do another interval after it? ouch. That would be a bit different, as you said...

have a look here if you havent already. a lot of good info:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/
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Postby Dave Noisy » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:58 pm

Thank flightlessbirds - it's a bit of work, looking forward to your report!

Cool, i've posted a few notes to the GG forum.

Yeah, i figured out that Threshold in WKO+-speak is 60min..heh.. That means ~255w for me. 275w is my 20min, and maybe 340w for 8min.

Damn, 2x20@255w sounds EASY!! =)

Yeah, i completely failed in my effort to try the second interval at the TT..that would explain it.. I could prolly hold 255w at that point tho....hmmm...

The 2x20 are useful because 'cross races will be 40+mins. And i'd rather 'over-train' this for myself, since it's been heavily under-trained over the years (read: not at all.)

Check out the two links above for my 300w/4mins reasoning. The fundamental idea is that i'm working VO2 Max, and that it's not quite as necessary to spend 'consecutive' time at that level, but that i'm spending time in that zone. So if i can pull off 8x4min@300w, i'm still getting 32mins at 300w, and my body will make the necessary adaptations to continue that.

It's a personal experiment as well...can i set a wattage goal for myself, and adapt to it? 300w isn't unrealistic (i'm already well above that for 10min, and at least 275w for 20mins..) for me...although it's pretty close to what i could handle.. But it'll be neat to see if i can continue to work through these efforts, and by spending this time at 300w, adapt so i can make it in one big stretch...

Additionally, i've done 4x8mins@300w, but uphill (and slightly bigger rests). So yes, my body CAN do it. Part of the problem is general fatigue from the previous efforts, as this is a new type of stress for me, and of course the mental aspect of holding the same wattage on a flat without the resistance a hill offers....

And speaking of 300w, here are my results:

#1
Ave Wts: 297
Ave HR: 170
Ave Cad: 104
Ave Spd: 40.9

#2
Ave Wts: 300
Ave HR: 177
Ave Cad: 103
Ave Spd: 40.6

#3 (2:11)
Ave Wts: 306
Ave HR: 179
Ave Cad: 103
Ave Spd: 40.6

#4 (3:20)
Ave Wts: 266
Ave HR: 168
Ave Cad: 102

There was a 1min rest between #1, 2 & 3. Stopped in #3 because it looked like i wasn't holding 300w...guess i was! Guess i gotta run it out a bit longer next time...

I then rested about 8mins, and tried another effort, no dice at all, legs just couldn't push the necessary watts.

I think next time i'll try 2min rests, and if i get through 4 like that, i'll take a 10min rest before the second set of 4. Will be doing this again Tuesday.

On the bike front, i'm very disappointed. I was told by Ridley there was a frame in Toronto that someone had bought, but wanted to sell. I contacted the Canadian Ridley distributor, and after several days (and me bugging them in that span) they said they didn't get it....and that i can order another one, and it'll be here in 12 weeks.

Fuck them. Ridley themselves had to do their footwork, and located a frame for me, and then this company twiddles their thumbs and let's the ball drop. I won't be buying anything from this company.

So i'm going to get a Power Tap for my MTB, and a cheaper frame, prolly what i was looking at from Specialized. Also looking at some wheels -- there is a lightly raced (triathlon) pair of Hed deep-dish wheels built to a PowerTap SL for $1200.....!!
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Postby helmut » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:56 am

sorry to hear about the frame dave! sounds like it was all a total pain in the arse! it looked pretty cool too.
*take me to the mediocrity dungeon*
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Postby Dave Noisy » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:00 am

[quote="helmut"]sorry to hear about the frame dave! sounds like it was all a total pain in the arse! it looked pretty cool too.

Yeah, i'm pretty disappointed...stupid bikes.
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:39 am



finally got to these guys. I've more-or-less seen all of the arguments before. The first one I pretty much agree with (but I think he has it reversed: 20MP is indicative of your fitness, not vice-versa, but that doesn't really matter, I get his point). The second one is certainly a bit more controversial and is something people go around and around and around on, eh? Not the lack of usefulness of the long slow base period, I think most are on board with that, but the low-volume-only approach. Most seem to say, "yeah, ok, its good, but not quite the same...". Interesting points about the fatigue tho. I am still not convinced that 8x4 = 4x8. :) maybe...
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:41 am

oh, and that's complete #@$# about the Ridley. What are you gonna do? just skip a TT frame for now?
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Postby Dave Noisy » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:16 pm

Heya - i don't know if he's quite advocating 'low volume', but certainly has mastered using low-volume effectively for his local events. I doubt he's saying a Tour-level rider can get away with four days of 1.5hrs each...

4x8 is not exactly the same as 8x4, but it would have similar effects...and of course i'll be reversing that ratio as i can, but it's where i think i need to start...

Ridley has asked if i can wait one more week, but i think i'll just go ahead and order what i want and go from there...
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Postby flightlessbirds » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:01 pm

Hmmm, that's lame about the TT frame! When do DO get a TT bike going, are you going to start climbing all your hills with it like Mr. Cleetus? ;)
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:43 pm

[quote="flightlessbirds"] When do DO get a TT bike going, are you going to start climbing all your hills with it like Mr. Cleetus? ;)


I recommend that you do, and that you start running off of the bike too. 8) Oh, and, FB, its on the aerobars, not just on the TT bike. :P I just looked at my schedule - only 12 more weeks of it to go! please talk to my coach. (ok ok its not all that...)
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