Bin Laden Dead?!

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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby beforewisdom » Fri May 06, 2011 6:02 pm

Hiking Fox wrote:
JohnBarleycorn wrote:Bin Laden was a handy bogeyman for the USA and Britain.


Sums it up perfectly.


This is the kind of comment I am curious about.

In the U.S. "bogeyman" is slang for a false terror. Something that scares people, but isn't real. Bin Laden really did organanize the 9/11 attacks which killed several thousand people. He was still involved with Al Queda at his death. Even if he spent 24/7 on a kidney machine, there is a chance he was still channeling his wealth into the organization and using his connections on their behalf. So, Bin Laden was not a "bogeyman". He was a real man who did real harm to innocent people and was looking forward to helping hurt more innocent people.

When the 9/11 attacks happened I lived about 6 miles from the pentagon. People in my area frequently hopped on planes to New York. I could have easily been one of Bin Laden's victims. I would imagine the British and the Europeans would have even more of a sense of that given their proximity to more terrorists attacks over the years.

I don't see the connection between what Bin Laden was and the vegan (as a group) attitude of "oh this doesn't mean anything, it is all BS".

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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby vegan hal » Fri May 06, 2011 6:17 pm

beforewisdom wrote:
Hiking Fox wrote:
JohnBarleycorn wrote:Bin Laden was a handy bogeyman for the USA and Britain.


Sums it up perfectly.


This is the kind of comment I am curious about.

In the U.S. "bogeyman" is slang for a false terror. Something that scares people, but isn't real. Bin Laden really did organanize the 9/11 attacks which killed several thousand people. He was still involved with Al Queda at his death. Even if he spent 24/7 on a kidney machine, there is a chance he was still channeling his wealth into the organization and using his connections on their behalf. So, Bin Laden was not a "bogeyman". He was a real man who did real harm to innocent people and was looking forward to helping hurt more innocent people.

When the 9/11 attacks happened I lived about 6 miles from the pentagon. People in my area frequently hopped on planes to New York. I could have easily been one of Bin Laden's victims. I would imagine the British and the Europeans would have even more of a sense of that given their proximity to more terrorists attacks over the years.

I don't see the connection between what Bin Laden was and the vegan (as a group) attitude of "oh this doesn't mean anything, it is all BS".


I'm with you. but also, i'm pretty close to it all. beside living + working in NYC for years, i literally got the last flight out of LaGuardia 12 hrs before the attack. Which was lucky being that the weather was so terrible that night and all flights were getting cancelled. my dad was flying to SF and had his choice of being on the flight he chose (out of JFK) or Flight 93 out of Newark. if he had chosen the latter, he would be gone.

i'm glad OBL is gone.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby Fallen_Horse » Fri May 06, 2011 6:34 pm

baldy wrote:Not true, there was some celebration of the royal wedding.

Which was one of the most idiotic excitements of the news I have had to deal with. Seriously, who gives a s*** about celebrity marriages? And the royal family? There's another joke of an idea....

Anyway, back on topic. I thought this was a solid opinion piece I recently read: http://www.good.is/post/since-when-are-liberals-cool-with-shooting-an-unarmed-man-in-the-face/

I started a thread on VBB about Osama's death and quite frankly I don't think much will come of it. Yeah we 'got him' and 'take that al-Qaeda' but really we still have political corruption, corporate control of govt., lack of healthcare, etc. etc. The real major issues can't be solved by a simple assassination....
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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby beforewisdom » Fri May 06, 2011 7:28 pm

Fallen_Horse wrote:I started a thread on VBB about Osama's death and quite frankly I don't think much will come of it. Yeah we 'got him' and 'take that al-Qaeda' but really we still have political corruption, corporate control of govt., lack of healthcare, etc. etc. The real major issues can't be solved by a simple assassination....


Isn't that perfectionistic attitude the problem? Unless a victory solves every single problem and does it in a 100% pure way it doesn't count for anything at all?

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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby thestoatyone » Fri May 06, 2011 7:49 pm

Hiking Fox wrote:celebrating the Govt's U-turn on allotments


They dropped that then? Thank chuff.

Don't know about not celebrating stuff, I for one am celebrating it being Friday with all of my heart...
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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby Fallen_Horse » Fri May 06, 2011 11:05 pm

beforewisdom wrote:
Fallen_Horse wrote:I started a thread on VBB about Osama's death and quite frankly I don't think much will come of it. Yeah we 'got him' and 'take that al-Qaeda' but really we still have political corruption, corporate control of govt., lack of healthcare, etc. etc. The real major issues can't be solved by a simple assassination....


Isn't that perfectionistic attitude the problem? Unless a victory solves every single problem and does it in a 100% pure way it doesn't count for anything at all?

Yes perfectionism is too demanding, but I don't think it's too demanding to want a few days of media coverage to be spent on issues that will affect us more than the death of one guy. If the news wants to cover Osama news then go for it, but how about we cover more important issues a bit more?
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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby beforewisdom » Fri May 06, 2011 11:23 pm

Fallen_Horse wrote:Yes perfectionism is too demanding, but I don't think it's too demanding to want a few days of media coverage to be spent on issues that will affect us more than the death of one guy. If the news wants to cover Osama news then go for it, but how about we cover more important issues a bit more?


The apprehension of a man that killed over 3,000 of us is an important issues and spending a few days on that is not unreasonable.

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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby Fallen_Horse » Sat May 07, 2011 12:31 am

beforewisdom wrote:
Fallen_Horse wrote:Yes perfectionism is too demanding, but I don't think it's too demanding to want a few days of media coverage to be spent on issues that will affect us more than the death of one guy. If the news wants to cover Osama news then go for it, but how about we cover more important issues a bit more?


The apprehension of a man that killed over 3,000 of us is an important issues and spending a few days on that is not unreasonable.


Which is exactly why I said it was fine that the news was covering his death.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby xbojanx » Sat May 07, 2011 7:57 pm

US Military is as terrorist as Al Quaida... killing three little kids, grandchildren of Gaddafi...landing depleted uranium all over the globe etc...so, I really do not care if they killed Obama Bin Laden or not. All US presidents are responsible for much more deaths, but still wouldn't celebrate killing any of them. Now, fair trial would be something interesting to see...some US citizens are to UScentric...
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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby JohnBarleycorn » Sun May 08, 2011 2:02 pm

xbojanx wrote:US Military is as terrorist as Al Quaida... killing three little kids, grandchildren of Gaddafi...landing depleted uranium all over the globe etc...so, I really do not care if they killed Obama Bin Laden or not. All US presidents are responsible for much more deaths, but still wouldn't celebrate killing any of them. Now, fair trial would be something interesting to see...some US citizens are to UScentric...


Agreed......

As an historian, the question I would ask would be......

The bombing of the twin towers,

The bombing of Pearl Harbour

The bombing of Dresden

The atomic bombs dropped on Japan

The bombing of Coventry or Rotterdam

What was the difference ?

As I see it, bombings committed by the good guys are just unpleasant aspects of war, but bombings committed by the bad guys are criminal or terrorist acts.

You can argue it any way you like, but the cold, hard truth is that innocent people die. Countries, organisations, individuals, fight with whatever they have to hand. Lancaster bombers, suicide bombers.....they all further the aims of the individual or country, using civilians as their targets.

I seem to remember one million Iraqi civillians, mostly children, died in the 1990's, as a result of UN sanctions. A million, a thousand......the number isn't important.......they died in 'our' name.

So who are the terrorists ?
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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby Talyn » Sun May 08, 2011 2:04 pm

JohnBarleycorn wrote:
xbojanx wrote:US Military is as terrorist as Al Quaida... killing three little kids, grandchildren of Gaddafi...landing depleted uranium all over the globe etc...so, I really do not care if they killed Obama Bin Laden or not. All US presidents are responsible for much more deaths, but still wouldn't celebrate killing any of them. Now, fair trial would be something interesting to see...some US citizens are to UScentric...


Agreed......

As an historian, the question I would ask would be......

The bombing of the twin towers,

The bombing of Pearl Harbour

The bombing of Dresden

The atomic bombs dropped on Japan

The bombing of Coventry or Rotterdam

What was the difference ?

As I see it, bombings committed by the good guys are just unpleasant aspects of war, but bombings committed by the bad guys are criminal or terrorist acts.

You can argue it any way you like, but the cold, hard truth is that innocent people die. Countries, organisations, individuals, fight with whatever they have to hand. Lancaster bombers, suicide bombers.....they all further the aims of the individual or country, using civilians as their targets.

I seem to remember one million Iraqi civillians, mostly children, died in the 1990's, as a result of UN sanctions. A million, a thousand......the number isn't important.......they died in 'our' name.

So who are the terrorists ?


+1.
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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby beforewisdom » Sun May 08, 2011 2:07 pm

xbojanx wrote:US Military is as terrorist as Al Quaida... killing three little kids, grandchildren of Gaddafi...landing depleted uranium all over the globe etc...so, I really do not care if they killed Obama Bin Laden or not. All US presidents are responsible for much more deaths, but still wouldn't celebrate killing any of them. Now, fair trial would be something interesting to see...some US citizens are to UScentric...


One of the things I like about this board is that it has a regular international membership. I think that on an international board it is good to remember that while intelligent people will interesting criticisms of the way their countries do things, that their country, is still their country. People respond emotionally, irrationally and get offended in those regards.

I think it is also helpful to remember that just about every country has dirty policies and dark histories.

XBojanx, I don't like my home being compared to a terrorist organization. I have taken offense at that.

I consider your quote to be unfair as to the facts. As far as Gaddafi's relatives getting killed the man ordered his military to open fire on his own citizens. Those people, his people, had relatives too. U.S. involvement in Libya came grudgingly from the U.S. at the behest of the international community.

I followed the news of the breakup of Yugoslavia back in the 1990s. Serbians were responsible for concentration camps reappearing in Europe for the first time since 1940s. If it wasn't for the involvement of the United States that war might have spread to the rest of Europe and cost more people their lives, possibly yours if the war had been allowed to continue.

If you don't want people to get the mistaken impression that you are a hypocrite, before you compare their home to a terrorist organization you might want to learn about the dark episodes in your own nation's history.

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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby xbojanx » Sun May 08, 2011 9:56 pm

So, US Military = USA? OK. Good to know. Again, so many US citizens see their country as the most important entity in the world. Sorry, it"s not the case. There is no "democratic intervention". And by saying this
Serbians were responsible for concentration camps reappearing in Europe for the first time since 1940s.

you showed how informed you are. You cannot tag something on the whole nation. I didn't say all Americans are racist, stupid, terrorists, ignorant etc. Because they're not. But those with high patriotic feeling might be. Same goes for Serbs, and just about any nation.

Also, you might want to do a little bit of additional reading, apart from what mainstream US media tells you about Balkans. It is pretty complex socio-economic and political region, and there is much more to it than simple "Serbs bad, others good". All nations involved in the conflicts in the 90ies had their camps, had their war criminals, had their share. But it's not an issue here.

Gaddafi is a dictator. What he does doesn't justify three kids, age 3, 2, and 4 months to be killed by US military bombing. So stating this
As far as Gaddafi's relatives getting killed the man ordered his military to open fire on his own citizens.

doesn't make any sense.

For me, it was always interesting how some people from US believe media when it comes to "who is bad guy in the rest of the world", but at the same time scream how "media lies!" when it comes to some America's business (or animal rights or whatever).

And I just cannot figure out what might make me a hypocrite?
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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby Fallen_Horse » Sun May 08, 2011 11:52 pm

JohnBarleycorn wrote:....
As an historian, the question I would ask would be......

The bombing of the twin towers,

The bombing of Pearl Harbour

The bombing of Dresden

The atomic bombs dropped on Japan

The bombing of Coventry or Rotterdam

What was the difference ?

As I see it, bombings committed by the good guys are just unpleasant aspects of war, but bombings committed by the bad guys are criminal or terrorist acts.

You can argue it any way you like, but the cold, hard truth is that innocent people die. Countries, organisations, individuals, fight with whatever they have to hand. Lancaster bombers, suicide bombers.....they all further the aims of the individual or country, using civilians as their targets.

I seem to remember one million Iraqi civillians, mostly children, died in the 1990's, as a result of UN sanctions. A million, a thousand......the number isn't important.......they died in 'our' name.

So who are the terrorists ?


Unfortunately history is not so black and white.
1. You cannot judge all countries equally in saying 'bombings are bad'. Every country is at a different stage of development and economic prosperity, and lumping all bombings done by all countries (or even one country over many years) is not an accurate way to judge a situation. Would you have been against the bombing of Hitler? What if you could have bombed Hitler and only killed him and his close generals?
2. Intention is very important. If the US didn't specifically care about killing as few citizens as possible, why would the military even bother developing smart bombs, which have a very high accuracy and low collateral damage? Why send in a strike team to kill terrorist targets when they could just bomb the crap out of an area? In fact, most first-world countries go out of their way to prevent civilian deaths in war. Most underdeveloped countries (led by dictators or terrorists) go out of their way to cause as many civilian casualties as possible. You don't see the difference?
3. (Unfortunately) we do not currently live in a pacifist utopia. One man with a machine gun could kill an entire country of pacifists. It's simply not a legitimate way for everyone to live. So how do you propose we discourage evil and encourage good? Yes many civilians died in Iraq during the sanctions, but how else would you have persuaded Saddam to stop killing his people and remove himself from power? In fact, the sanctions didn't work and the US had to end up going in there by force in order to remove him. Good or bad idea? I don't really know, but I DO know that pacifism does not make the world a better place, unless everyone else agrees to be a pacifist as well.

You ask who the terrorists are, but I am wondering if you believe you know the answer. A terrorist is someone who purposely causes the deaths of innocents, while a soldier is someone who goes out of his way to only kill combatants. This is a clear boundary.

And before this argument goes into the basis of personal belief, I personally am against violence and war, and did not vote for any of the violent actions currently in progress (unless you count paying taxes as a form of support, in which case we are all murderers).
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Re: Bin Laden Dead?!

Postby etherspin » Mon May 09, 2011 8:35 am

beforewisdom wrote:No offense to anyone in this thread, but what is it about vegans, as a group, that they seem to be persistent killjoys unable to celebrate anything?


Nonsense , we all revel in World Vegan Day ... and that lupin bean thing , we were all stoked about that .

pretty messed up thing to celebrate! :shock: Im sure at least 15 randoms loosely connected with Bin Laden were probably knocked off on the way in, Im glad he cant plot anymore but Im not pleased for anyones death, suffering or even how twisted their mind and existance must have been to mastermind something so fucked up as 9/11
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