how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby Gelert » Thu May 06, 2010 11:32 am

[quote="ha"]How much do I shit? Well I dont have time to be dumping all day long and eating all day long so Ive hooked up a tube from hole to hole and I just recycle my food for a few days cos thats more eco.



Top answer. I always thought you were full of shit, seems I was not far wrong :D :wink:

[quote]Basically fruit meets Mr whippy is what we are talking bout here.


That would be a Bristol type 5 stool at least and suggests you might have some difficulty in readsorbing the water and digesting your food properly and the transit time in your intestine may be too short. Not a major problem really as it could be worse, but something to be wary of if it's consistently like this. You should be aiming for a smooth and soft but firm to the touch snake really, and the occasional one which is harder and has cracks on the surface is fine.

[quote]No I cant post any photos!


Pics or it didn't happen.
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby mabli » Thu May 06, 2010 11:46 am

I think you look great ha, not at all too skinny imo :D

For me though veganism is also about using fewer of the earth's resources for food, from what you've shown you need to eat in a day your diet doesnt fit in with this idea. Also I dont actually like eating to the extent that you must.
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby The Duke » Thu May 06, 2010 12:07 pm

[quote="mabli"]For me though veganism is also about using fewer of the earth's resources for food, from what you've shown you need to eat in a day your diet doesnt fit in with this idea. .


I think there are a lot of assumptions around that statement.

Ha consumes between 3500 and 7000 calories a day depending on activity. That is not high for an endurance athlete and he would probably consume the same from more other sources.

He would consume roughly the same amount carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen and would need the same amount of micro nutrients and trace elements as us.

If that is not true then there is something fundamentally wrong with our (Western) understanding of chemistry and biology.

Where he differs is that all of his nutrition is from a primary source rather than processed in some way.

Now that means his food is not as nutrient dense and will require more space / fuel to produce it but no resource is used in either the dehydration or denaturing of the food.

Additionally no resource is required for preparation and food waste can be dealt with by composting locally.

I don't know if it makes sense to grow fruit in tropical areas and then ship it but it certainly makes more sense than some of the models currently used.

I can understand your issue with using locally grown food though. You would have to live entirely off raw leeks and daffodils which might become tedious!!!!
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby mabli » Thu May 06, 2010 12:56 pm

fair point, but adding nuts to the diet would allow more calories whilst still being a primary source. think id need to see how much land goes into growing a years supply of raw fruit diet food and how much goes into growing my meals to understand this properly. it was only the land useage in growing all that fruit that jumped into my head when i saw several sacks of food per day.

hadnt considered that as an endurance athlete ha needs to eat more, maybe if i saw a less athletic person's quota i would be less shocked.

i coulnt live without my daily quota of daffs :wink:
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby The Duke » Thu May 06, 2010 2:21 pm

[quote="mabli"] think id need to see how much land goes into growing a years supply of raw fruit diet food and how much goes into growing my meals to understand this properly.


But with certain foods you have the potential to create a pleasant productive (all very subjective) ecosystem in the production area?

It is not necessarily the amount of land used as the impact of the farming method on the land.
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby mabli » Thu May 06, 2010 4:59 pm

Yes you're right but im still struggling with the idea of growing and eating so much when there's no need, the whole concept doesn't sit comfortably with me.
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby tal » Thu May 06, 2010 5:59 pm

[quote="mabli"]Yes you're right but im still struggling with the idea of growing and eating so much when there's no need, the whole concept doesn't sit comfortably with me.


And ironically I wonder what percentage of crops in corn, wheat and soy are wasted as animal feed. Or the amount of water wasted for the above. Or oil that is wasted for packaging, transportation, refridgeration. Etc.
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby Fjodo » Thu May 06, 2010 6:15 pm

[quote="Talyn"][quote="mabli"]Yes you're right but im still struggling with the idea of growing and eating so much when there's no need, the whole concept doesn't sit comfortably with me.


And ironically I wonder what percentage of crops in corn, wheat and soy are wasted as animal feed.


Well, isn't that the main reason for becoming vegan?
http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20596
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby tal » Thu May 06, 2010 7:15 pm

[quote="Fjodo"]Well, isn't that the main reason for becoming vegan?


Precisely. So why then say that ha's diet is unsustainable? Compared to what? Meat and dairy?
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby Fjodo » Thu May 06, 2010 7:53 pm

Compared to a diet including crops that have more calories like wheat or potatoes or beans. Fruits need, as far as I know, more water and more land to produce the same amount of calories as potatoes or, well, most staple foods. Just do the math: how much water and land is needed to produce 70 bananas and, like, two boxes of mango everyday for each person? Aside from there not being enough cultivatable land with the right climatic conditions (unless you cut down some rainforests), I think even while pretending every kind of land was suitable you will agree with me saying that a diet including more different kinds of crops like the ones mentioned above is more sustainable and more widely applicable as a diet consisting of nothing but tropical fruit, not to mention even 7000 kcal of them (for example, I live on a diet of, like, 2000-3000 a day).
Of course, I am not AGAINST what ha is doing, so don't get me wrong, please. I just wanted to mention that this kind of lifestyle, as far as I know, does not seem very possible for the majority of people.
And as long as ha is healthy, I am totally fine with his diet. I just wanted to know for sure he is healthy, as I prefer to be a little bit skeptic whenever I learn about a new and extreme thing. A positive surprise is better than a negative one, don't you agree? Also, I used to be heavily underweight for some time, so whenever I see very slim people I am getting worried because I had real health problems back when I looked that way. Of course, ha's sport performance is intimidating!
With best regards,
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Last edited by Fjodo on Thu May 06, 2010 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby Gelert » Thu May 06, 2010 7:55 pm

[quote="Talyn"][quote="Fjodo"]Well, isn't that the main reason for becoming vegan?


Precisely. So why then say that ha's diet is unsustainable? Compared to what? Meat and dairy?



Quick observation about Ha's favourite fruit and sustainability.

Bananas have a major problem. They can't have sex. Bananas have not had sex since the last ice age. You could wrap up a banana in a fifty dollar note and throw it into a hothouse and it would come up sucking its thumb.

This means the genetic diversity of banana cultivars in use is very restricted

Which means they're at major risk of being wiped out by plant pathogens.

New Scientist ran an article seven years ago warning that the banana could become extinct within a decade or so.

Countermeasures include using a truckload of pesticides or GM. These are not options for organic bananas. I hate to say it, but organic bananas are probably set to run out before oil does.

Arguably if you had to pick a food crop, any food crop, that was eminently unsustainable, you would pick the banana.
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby tal » Thu May 06, 2010 8:00 pm

[quote="Gelert"][quote="Talyn"][quote="Fjodo"]Well, isn't that the main reason for becoming vegan?


Precisely. So why then say that ha's diet is unsustainable? Compared to what? Meat and dairy?



Quick observation about Ha's favourite fruit and sustainability.

Bananas have a major problem. They can't have sex. Bananas have not had sex since the last ice age. You could wrap up a banana in a fifty dollar note and throw it into a hothouse and it would come up sucking its thumb.

This means the genetic diversity of banana cultivars in use is very restricted

Which means they're at major risk of being wiped out by plant pathogens.

New Scientist ran an article seven years ago warning that the banana could become extinct within a decade or so.

Countermeasures include using a truckload of pesticides or GM. These are not options for organic bananas. I hate to say it, but organic bananas are probably set to run out before oil does.

Arguably if you had to pick a food crop, any food crop, that was eminently unsustainable, you would pick the banana.


LOL. I stand corrected ;)
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby The Duke » Fri May 07, 2010 7:14 am

[quote="Gelert"]Bananas have a major problem. They can't have sex. Bananas have not had sex since the last ice age. You could wrap up a banana in a fifty dollar note and throw it into a hothouse and it would come up sucking its thumb.


OK. I'm not necessarily supporting Ha's banana fetish here.

Bananas do not have to be the central feature of a "Ha type diet".

It could (from where I sit) consist of different fruits / growing things.

Fucked if I know what though!!!

I'm trying to challange the preconceptions that ...

... it would not be desirable/possible for everyone to eat a "similar" diet to Ha because

it would be bad for biodiversity
it would take more land
the ecosystem on the utilised land would be poor
the water volume consumed to produce the food would be to great

etc etc

I'm trying to look at the world with an open mind.
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby Gelert » Fri May 07, 2010 9:52 am

[quote="The Duke"][Bananas do not have to be the central feature of a "Ha type diet".

It could (from where I sit) consist of different fruits / growing things.
....

I'm trying to challange the preconceptions that ...



Fair play to you for doing so. Searching through the history of VF would show I am not the biggest fan of ha for how he advocated this diet as a fix-all for eating disorders in the past, but I do respect his take on things for himself. If he manages half of what he says he does on this diet, respect is due.


I would also like to challenge some preconceptions. I'll try to go down the route of being quantitative in doing so. I would welcome anyone to question the data used, I remain a little sceptical myself, but they are hopefully illustrative.

Indeed bananas would not need to be the central feature of his diet. But they do appear to be, do they not?

The modern world is an interesting place with regards to fruit. I suspect I'm not the only one (your time in the deepest land of the yeti e.g.) to have lived outside the "banana belt" which is namely the parts of the world where you can't get bananas to in time to stop them from wilting. It's an exceptionally fat belt. In my experience its peripheries are at Tromso in mainland Norway and occasionally it stretches to Longyearbyen on Svalbard, about 500 miles short of the North pole. Beyond that bananas become a kind of ersatz currency (along with good beer, frozen chips and specialist pornography)

This is because of the pretty amazing network of transport infrastructure we have. Some of it is dependent on air travel. Recent weeks have given Europe a taste of what is to come to that. Some of it is dependent on shipping. While this has been lauded as being a lot more carbon friendly, that is not in fact the case. Shipping - especially of refrigerated goods, such as fruit - has a significant carbon footprint. About 7% of the greenhouse gases emitted come from ships. So that is no soft option.

It is all dependent on picking green bananas and artificially ripening them with ethylene gas.

My parents remember the days when fruit such as bananas and oranges were outrageous luxury in the UK. Today's kids expect iPhones or xboxes in their Christmas stockings whereas their grandparents would have had one of these exotic fruit.

Yet it's likely that the time will come when "wot no bananas" is back in fashion in the way "keep calm and carry on" is now. And not just for bananas. Food security is becoming a major problem in general.

There are three big challenges in food security at the moment. First dealing with the effects of climate change on crops, second, reducing its carbon intensive nature, both in production (irrigation and fertilization) and transport. Third, meeting the demands of rising populations.

The key must be local, seasonal food. If you grow your own, or live a short walk from a sustainable source, that is the ideal. We do have indigenous fruit which can be used though, but this is seasonal obviously. I have seen calculations which suggest the environmental impact of bringing apples to the UK from New Zealand is less than storing UK apples for five months. And we know that is not sustainable either.

Now granted the availability of bananas in ha's fruit market is dependent on regional rather than global transport, but I would seriously question this approach for the parts of the world (such as Northern Europe) which would require long haul transport.

Let's assume that someone were to live on a diet of bananas and mangos in a higher latitude country. I always take carbon footprint calculations with a huge pinch of salt, but let's take these ones fresh from the internet for bananas and mangos in the United States. By all means give them a margin of error and forgive the use of non guinea pig units.

http://planetgreen.discovery.com/food-h ... foods.html

[quote]Take into account that getting a single banana to your table uses about 8 pounds of carbon for a four ounce serving


113 gram banana equals 3.63 kilogram carbon use. (Although an "average banana is 126 grams" according to google)

[quote]However, just like the banana, mangoes have a huge carbon footprint at about 8 pounds of CO2 emissions [per 4 oz]


An average mango weighs about 200g, so 6.5 kg of carbon per mango.

Now recall that to meet the demands of calories etc. ha eats up to 70 bananas a day. Shall we assume our American friend does this as a ballpark estimate of what's needed to thrive on this diet?

This translates to 7.9 kilograms of average bananas. This means 254 kilograms of carbon emission a day.

Let's put this into context. The same source uses an estimate from MIT that the average American should emit no more than 4 (presumably US) tons of CO2 a year. It contends that a banana a day would amount to 49% of this. It also says that one mango a day would equal 49% of this - so 98% of the annual CO2 quota spent on two pieces of fruit.

Do the math on 70 bananas a day and a fuckload of mangos!

Even if we take the figures with a big pinch of salt it's clearly dodgy on environmental grounds.

I would say it is clearly not an option to be a long haul fruitarian with any sense of global compassion. I accept and except ha from this on the grounds that he's a bit more local, but let's not forget the impacts locally as well. See http://www.islandnet.com/~vipirg/public ... ananas.pdf for a very detailed discussion of this kind of problem in Costa Rica.

Right, having discussed the carbon budget of bananas, let me make this an epic teal deer off by factoring in the energy budget.

[quote]Ha consumes between 3500 and 7000 calories a day depending on activity. That is not high for an endurance athlete and he would probably consume the same from more other sources.

He would consume roughly the same amount carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen and would need the same amount of micro nutrients and trace elements as us.

If that is not true then there is something fundamentally wrong with our (Western) understanding of chemistry and biology


There appear to be practical if not physiological constraints on the amount of calories that can be utilized from food a day. Before Mike Stroud and Rafe Fiennes crossed Antarctica, it was thought that Tour de France cyclists were at the human top end at about 8000 calories a day. They both notched up expenditures of up to 11,600 calories on the tab up to the plateau, which put them into a deficit which Mike compares to running several marathons a day while on starvation. At the time they were eating about 5600 calories a day. Stroud estimates that this expenditure must be near the physiological limit. So I am a little sceptical of the likes of Michael Phelps. Anyways.

Both Stroud and Fiennes recovered unusually quickly for people put on this extent of deficit, and that has been ascribed to their micronutrient and vitamin demands being met, which otherwise would not be the case for victims of starvation. So pretty much in agreement with you there Duke.

But.

[quote]He would consume roughly the same amount carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen

I am not in agreement with.

I have shown that 70 average bananas would weigh just under eight kilograms. I hope I am not doing ha in any discourtesy with the guesstimate that he eats about ten percent of his own body weight a day to meet his needs and broadly break even in his body weight. (To relate to our two favourite Antarctic explorers, they used less than 2 kilograms of food and fuel to provide 5,600 calories a day. As you'll know that factors in a good dose of fuel to melt water.)

That is pretty inefficient, to be fair. Fjodo and I's earlier questions about the state of his bowels reveal that not only does he go very frequently but enjoys a consistently soft state of turd. Both are consistent with a short transit time of food in his bowels, no doubt as a consequence of having to eat so much to yield so little.

Without breaking out Avogadro's constant it is plain to see that ha does consume a lot more C, H, N and O than the rest of us. That eight kilos of bananas is not made from foofoo. It is also plain to see he doesn't get much out of that fairly inert C H N and O apart from shares in Andrex.

If we go by the stats of the average banana containing about 86 calories, the figure of 70 bananas (which I know is an "up to") provides only 6020 calories. The vast majority of which comes from carbs - less than 2% from the protein and fat combined.

So to wrap up, let's combine both budgets for our (mythical American) energy-demanding fruitarian bananas about bananas.

254 kilograms of CO2 emitted for 6020 calories per day. 42 grams of carbon per calorie.

The data I can find (1500 calories per kilo, 22.1 kg of CO2 per kilo) gives a figure of 14.7 grams of carbon per calorie for fillet steak.

Which is about a third of the banana CO2 emission per calorie.

I'll not say more because I don't want to give the impression of promoting the consumption of meat. Which we know is bad for the environment.

I'm afraid this does little to reject those preconceptions, Duke. Sorry.
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Re: how i can eat up to 70 bananas in a day?

Postby The Duke » Fri May 07, 2010 11:52 am

Gelert,

When I used the word "consume" I meant "put in to his mouth.

I was not including the energy used to produce, transport etc etc.

Also, I pretty much accept what you say if we are talking about bananas. No argument.

But I'm trtying to imagine what it would be the most energy efficient food taking into account all of your points and everyone elses.

Would it be raw? Would it be cooked? Is it necessary to "do things" to summer grown food to last through winter or is it better to ship the stuf from other parts of the world?

In terms of Yeti land there growing season is so short that have to dry and preserve food for winter and trade for rice and lentils. In areas without tourism their diet is dull beyond belief!

Gelert, what do YOU think the most environmentally efficient diet is for someone living on the coast of Wales? Not bananas I guess!!
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