Advice on dividing exercises up over two days

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Advice on dividing exercises up over two days

Postby Myrddin » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:33 am

As a 4 day split:
Legs, shoulders, chest
Lunges
Standing shoulder press
Barbell Front raise
Dips

Back, Neck, Biceps, Forearms, grip
Janda sit ups
Leg raises (with ankle weights)
Russian twists (with a plate)
Dumbell Side bends
Stiff legged deadlifts
Chin ups
Barbell Shrugs
Headstrap (front and sides of neck) - with weight
Sides of neck (palm pressure)
Wrist roller
Lever bar (for wrists)
Twist Yo' Wrist (Ironmind wrist training product)
Gripper
Pinch Grip
Extensors

Back day is a little big don't you think!
I might move traps (Shrugs) and Neck to Leg day - what do you reckon? Any suggestions?

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Postby Myrddin » Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:31 am

Had another thought: what if I moved my grip work (Gripper, PInch grip and extensors) to my leg day?

It would then look like this:
Legs, shoulders, chest, grip Mon, Thu
Lunges
Standing shoulder press
Barbell Front raise
Dips
Gripper
Pinch Grip
Extensors

Back, Neck, Biceps, Forearms Tue, Fri
Janda sit ups
Leg raises (with ankle weights)
Russian twists (with a plate)
Dumbell Side bends
Stiff legged deadlifts
Chin ups
Barbell Shrugs
Headstrap (front and sides of neck) - with weight
Sides of neck (palm pressure)
Wrist roller
Lever bar (for wrists)
Twist Yo' Wrist (Ironmind wrist training product)

Hows that look? Do you reckon its OK to train grip and forearm on seperate days even if they are related?

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Postby JP » Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:49 am

Adam, here's what i think: if you think in the terms of the musclemass you have legs and pushing muscles shoulders, chest and triceps on one day, and the second day has back and biceps (in effect).

you definitely want a two day split? You know what works for you, but i would take the grip and neck work out of the equation altogether and train them separately, either in the same day but am instead of pm when the main tarining is, or other way around (don't know when you train!) or something like that.

Then I would have a solid weightlifting routine as my basis and then additional grip and neck work. Some gripsters can train their grip 6 days a week with optiomal progress, some, like Martin, train their grip only twice/week with phenomenal success, i guess we are all different, but until we try whats best we won't know.

Then another suggestion, first day 1:

You have shoulder presses, dips and barbell front raises for pushing movements. IMO, they are in wrong order if you believe in the rule to have the most compound movement first so you can move the most weight, recruit the most muscle mass and therefore increase your strength the best. So i would start with dips, move on to shoulder presses and wouldn't do any front raises as they isolate front delts which are already done with the first two pushing movements. Instead, if you insist on having one more exercise there for pushing, i would do heavy tricep work like narrow grip benching, lying tricep extension and so on.

Also, you only have one exercise for legs - by far the biggest muscle mass reside there, but then 3 execises for pushing movements, far smaller group of muscle in terms of muscle mass.

Day 2:

you start with ab and core work and then move to deadlifts, i wouldn't do this because deadlifts rely on strong core to keep you stabilized and injury free. So i would have my core as fresh as possible for the deadlifts and only do them after that, they will be pre-exhausted and warmed up nicely by then as well.

I would also do proper deadlifts instead of stiff legged ones because you don't do squats. You need to be doing something which moves scary amounts of weight :)

I would have a bit of a rota there as well. You don't do any rowing exercise, so maybe alternate between having chins and bentover rows?

just some opinions :)
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Postby Myrddin » Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:17 pm

I should have mentioned. I do some AM some PM.
Legs, shoulders, chest, grip Mon, Thu
AM
Lunges
Standing shoulder press
Barbell Front raise
PM
Dips
Gripper
Pinch Grip
Extensors

Back, Neck, Biceps, Forearms Tue, Fri
AM
Stiff legged deadlifts
Janda sit ups
Leg raises (with ankle weights)
Russian twists (with a plate)
Dumbell Side bends
Chin ups
PM
Barbell Shrugs
Headstrap (front and sides of neck) - with weight
Sides of neck (palm pressure)
Wrist roller
Lever bar (for wrists)
Twist Yo' Wrist (Ironmind wrist training product)

I can see you are not too keen on 4 days splits - but what about the arrangement above? (I have changed the order I do Abs and deadlifts in as well as removing Barbell Front raises). I try to keep each workout 1 hour or less.

I agree that squats are great for muscle building but there are three reasons I don't do them:
1. My legs are big enough already. Truly, if I went to gung ho with my legs they'd balloon out even more. Currently, they are 27 inches.
2. I like lunges because if I were to do squats I'd need to lift 150kg+ to get the same workout I am getting know - I lift 100+ with my lunges, which is how much some people do with their squats.
3. I have only 120kgs worth of weights and my bar can take only 150kgs. When I squated 150kgs (just out of curiosity- to see of I could squat that much) my bar looked dangerously bent.

As for deadlifts, I don't have a strong enough bar (or enough weights) to lift what'd be required for me to get gains. With stiff legged I can instensively work my back using much less weights.

As with any exercise, if I can use less weights and I get the same intensity I will - its safer that way and I have vowed never to wear a back support belt. I figure if my back can't take it I shouldn't be lifting it.

So dips and shoulder press in combination - will work the front deltoids, will they?
So is the revised workout plan above OK?

Thanks for your advice, as I've said before you are very knowledgeable and an asset to the vegan strength community (thanks for the long reply too)

Vegan Power!

Adam
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Postby JP » Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:57 pm

[quote="Myrddin"]
I can see you are not too keen on 4 days splits - but what about the arrangement above? (I have changed the order I do Abs and deadlifts in as well as removing Barbell Front raises). I try to keep each workout 1 hour or less.


cool, though do try different things as well, like rows. It's actually quite amazing how you have built your back mate, i mean you don't do deadlifts or rows, you must have wicked genetics. But i definitely recommend starting to do heavy bent-over barbell rows mate.

[quote]
1. My legs are big enough already. Truly, if I went to gung ho with my legs they'd balloon out even more. Currently, they are 27 inches.


hehee, thats HUGE! i can see why that would get in the way of your martial arts and other training.

[quote]
2. I like lunges because if I were to do squats I'd need to lift 150kg+ to get the same workout I am getting know - I lift 100+ with my lunges, which is how much some people do with their squats.


here's a fundamental difference in our training philosophies i think. I want to move as much weight as possible, and thats why i want to keep squats and deadlifts as fundamental part of any routine i do.

thing is, we are all different, but as a rule of thumb if you would go with your routine to any message board as a beginner people would condemn the routine as inadequate and would tell you that you will be holding gains back by not doing things which are the greatest mass builders on earth. But as far as i'm concerned you have reacted greatly to your routine against all odds and all respect to you for that!

[quote]
As for deadlifts, I don't have a strong enough bar (or enough weights) to lift what'd be required for me to get gains. With stiff legged I can instensively work my back using much less weights.

cool, though i'm sure you would LOVE deads mate. They are the cream of the cake, the essense of the iron game, the sole reason why I train :)

[quote]
As with any exercise, if I can use less weights and I get the same intensity I will - its safer that way and I have vowed never to wear a back support belt. I figure if my back can't take it I shouldn't be lifting it.

I won't wear a belt either, but i equate intensity with the most weight moved.

Do you have a rack at home? I mean can you do things like good mornings?

[quote]
So dips and shoulder press in combination - will work the front deltoids, will they?

most definitely, but you could do something for your triceps directly. Depends on your goals and where you want to get stronger/bigger. If you are unsure about this, try some sort of rota where sometimes you do the front raises and sometimes tricep work.

[quote]
Thanks for your advice, as I've said before you are very knowledgeable and an asset to the vegan strength community (thanks for the long reply too)


no problem, and cheers for the compliment. Though i think my knowledge is from a very limited area and way of training, so if there's a situation where that approach is not possible, i'm quite lost :) But the power of a message board is that other people can tip in as well and it is the combined knowledge pool between all users which starts to be quite impressive!

What are your goals now for, say, the next 6 months or so?
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Postby VeganEssentials » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:07 am

[quote]JP - cool, though do try different things as well, like rows. It's actually quite amazing how you have built your back mate, i mean you don't do deadlifts or rows, you must have wicked genetics. But i definitely recommend starting to do heavy bent-over barbell rows mate.


Can't speak enough for barbell rowing myself. A truly fantastic exercise for packing on mass and quality strength. I believe pull-ups and pull-downs do have their place, but when in real life does that movement ever come into play? I prefer the plane of movement that applies most to moving heavy objects as I would do in reality, and rowing is about as good as it gets.

[quote]
JP - cool, though i'm sure you would LOVE deads mate. They are the cream of the cake, the essense of the iron game, the sole reason why I train :)


Again, I agree with JP. Deads have been the staple of my strength gains for the past 2 years and they are the last movement I would consider giving up. If I had to invest in equipment for one solitary exercise this would be it. There are few movements which can do as much for you in one single exercise, squats and overhead lifting being the others. Hated 'em for the first few months, but now I can't live without them. Not only that, but the progress I've made I attribute to putting them into my programs.

[quote]
Myrddin - As with any exercise, if I can use less weights and I get the same intensity I will - its safer that way and I have vowed never to wear a back support belt. I figure if my back can't take it I shouldn't be lifting it.


I feel the same on this. I forgo the use of any assistnace gear, be it gloves, straps, belts or suits. Though, through adaptation to heavier weights over time you can find that even if something like deadifting 300 now might be on the verge of aggravating your back, careful lifting and planning may make it so that a year or two from now you can do twice that much beltless. It's all about adaptation to imposed demands, and if your body doesn't feel the need to suit itself to the task at hand because it seems difficult, it never will.

[quote]Myrddin - So dips and shoulder press in combination - will work the front deltoids, will they?

In my opinion (and that of many others I've read) the front delts are very overrated as far as the need for any direct work. They get so much stimulation from movements such as benching and dips that unless you've got some serious underdevelopment there's rarely a case for need to do additional work. Dips and overhead lifting will do plenty in almost any case to remove any need for anything else because of the level of their involvement, so those two movements should suffice.

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Postby Myrddin » Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:43 am

Thanks for the advice guys.
I will do Deadlifts if I get an olympic bar in the future but as I have a standard bar with 150kg load rating I can't do them at the moment (I could already deadlift 150 so I've got no where to go).

BTW, I do do good mornings occasionally (I use my dip stands as a squat rack).

I have decided to do a five day split - with neck and forearms on a separate day as you suggested JP.

Adam
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