Negative pullups?!

Lifting weights whether for bodybuilding, toning, or just for general fitness.

Moderators: hardcore iv, bronco, fredrikw, JP, Rochellita

Negative pullups?!

Postby XkillerX » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:00 pm

WTF?! GTFO!

For real, who does this? And what are they supposed to be? And to help achieve?!

What next? Negative pressups? Negative squats?

I will go do a negative waking up now and tell you the results in the morning!
Next time, I'll spend the money on drugs instead.
User avatar
XkillerX
invisible blonde unicorn
 
Posts: 4272
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:20 pm
Location: toxic city, yugoslavia (or what's left of it...)

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby baldy » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:58 am

arent they for people who cant do full pullups? Maybe improve your grip?
"A wise man once said, "It's easier to buy smaller clothes, than to put on 5kg." ... Buzz
User avatar
baldy
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7305
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 10:23 am
Location: St Albans UK

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby bronco » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:04 pm

Is this thread serious or is there some kind of joke that I dont get :) ?

XkillerX wrote:What next? Negative pressups? Negative squats?

Actually, one of the best PL clubs in sweden are known for working a lot with negatives in the squat, and probably also in the bench. I think it is an effective way of training if you know what you are doing.
JP wrote:Spirulina is a badass crew, and they often just hang around in street corners looking to beat up proteins.

They oftenget confused by the fact that they are almost half protein themselves.
User avatar
bronco
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9033
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:25 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby human vegetable » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:21 pm

Different reasons why people do eccentric training:
1. They're beginners and can't do the positive yet (pullups).
2. They want to increase their maximal strength (powerlifters) and work with supramaximal loads to rev up their nervous systems.
3. They merely emphasize the negative (slower rep speed in the eccentric phase) because they have picked up somewhere (Arthur Jones?) that this is supposed to build more muscle size.

Personally, I fall under the third category, yet I'd like to reverse the reasoning presented above: a fast contraction recruits more muscle fibers than a slow one, so in theory best results are achieved with an explosive concentric, and a ballistic eccentric (rapid braking required). In practice, this will lead to injury very fast, so the eccentric part is slower than the concentric one out of sheer necessity.

I should add that going explosive probably only makes sense when you're training with heavy loads (close to your max), as you won't be able to build up a lot of momentum (so from the outside, the supposedly "explosive" contraction might look pretty lame).

If you're training with moderate loads (more than 5-6 reps per set), a merely "fast" positive could be better than an explosive one for bodybuilding purposes because it subjects the muscle to more continuous tension, so it "maximizes the time-tension integral" (don't ask me where I picked that up).

Unless you train for athletic purposes (power/speed), the weight should never feel like it flies from your hands propelled by its own inertia - you should have to overcome some resistance throughout the complete ROM. Otherwise, either the weight is too light or you're moving too fast.

Enough gym folklore for now...
human vegetable
Active Member
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby JP » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:33 pm

dont like negative barbell lifting, but in pullups have seen negatives bring out many people to the level that they can do their first ever rep.

So i would recommend negative pullups as a way to get there.
User avatar
JP
Site Admin
 
Posts: 19250
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:14 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby human vegetable » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:43 am

If the issue is increasing pullup strength, I'd suggest the following for a beginner who cannot do a full rep yet: Make a setup that allows for leg assistance, either by placing a weight bench below the pullup station, or by lowering the handles (maybe by pulling from a BB fixed in a power rack about head height, or using a jungle gym type of gizmo) so that your feet stay on the ground throughout the whole rep.

There are several ways to do this: you can have your thighs hang down, knees bent at 90 degrees and tips of toes touching the ground "behind" your body, or you can be in a squat type position with feet straight below or slightly in front of your body. Experiment what feels best and allows for gradual decrease of leg assistance.

This is not supposed to be some kind of arm-assisted squat, so only provide as much leg assistance as absolutely needed. If you're almost there, merely putting the feet on the ground without providing additional assistance (maybe even slightly pulling them upwards, so that they barely stay grounded) will do the trick by taking a couple of pounds off your bodyweight.

In order for this to work right, there has to be a certain amount of coordination. Otherwise it will turn into pure cheating, and also you won't be able to progress effectively by decreasing assistance step by step.

I can get in about a dozen bodyweight pullups, but I still like this method for high-rep sets from time to time (haven't got access to a lat machine/gravitron).

If you look for a method that allows for an objective and quantifiable degree of assistance, you could loop a resistance band through both handles and slip your knees in (poor man's gravitron). However, if you give it some initial practice I think leg assistance is much more convenient.

I think the methods outlined above are less risky than negative pullups. Beginners often carry too much fat, and they also have weak stabilizers > high risk of shoulder injury when doing pullups!
human vegetable
Active Member
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby XkillerX » Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:44 pm

Recipe for first pullup:

Find empty water bottles. Fill empty water bottles. Do various curls, bent and chinese rows until you can do a whole bunch with the biggest (heaviest) water bottle you can find. By this time you can hit the bar and do one if not two pullups. And from then on it's easy sailing towards your first dozen pullups in a single go. Just remember it's equally important to perform wide grip overhand pullups as well as close grip underhand pullups as well.

This will not only give you a quicker way to the first pullup but will also teach you to lift heavy fucking weights and make you stronger and fitter.

Reasoning: most people have too weak grip/hands, or no lateral back muscles, or both. This builds both, fast. Of course it's hard work and requires you to actually do shit instead of just hanging from the bar like an incompetent ******.
Next time, I'll spend the money on drugs instead.
User avatar
XkillerX
invisible blonde unicorn
 
Posts: 4272
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:20 pm
Location: toxic city, yugoslavia (or what's left of it...)

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby baldy » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:32 pm

XkillerX wrote:Reasoning: most people have too weak grip/hands, or no lateral back muscles, or both. This builds both, fast. Of course it's hard work and requires you to actually do shit instead of just hanging from the bar like an incompetent ******.

I think you are wrong, just hanging from the bar like an incompetent ****** will increase your grip strength.

It seems like a distant dream when I used to be able to do 12 pullups. :cry:

Pullups are all about being skinny or being crazy strong. Which category do you fall into?
"A wise man once said, "It's easier to buy smaller clothes, than to put on 5kg." ... Buzz
User avatar
baldy
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7305
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 10:23 am
Location: St Albans UK

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby ninearms » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:53 pm

What's the biggest bottle of water supermarkets sell? 5 litres? How much does 5 litres of water weigh? 5kg. How much is doing anything with 5kg weights going to help you do a single pullup? Not at all.

If you want to be good at pullups the best exercise is pullups. Obviously if you can't do pullups this presents a problem. The solution: band-assisted pullups. Start with a medium band (Ironwoody green), graduate to a light band (Ironwoody blue), then a mini band (Ironwoody red), before finally graduating to unassisted.

Do pullups every day. Doesn't have to be many, just do them everyday. Pullups are a lift that rewards practice.
“Begin at the beginning,” the King said gravely, “and go on till you come to the end. Then stop.”
User avatar
ninearms
Perked Member
 
Posts: 6044
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: Leicester, UK

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby human vegetable » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:58 pm

It seems like a distant dream when I used to be able to do 12 pullups. :cry:

Pullups are all about being skinny or being crazy strong. Which category do you fall into?


Baldy, not quite sure whether this is directed at me... I'm 6'2'', about 175 lbs, BF hovering around 10%. I hope that makes me "lean" rather than skinny.

But what I'm definitely not is "crazy strong". For the last couple of years, I have trained mostly with bodyweight movements (sometimes added weight). Still, my loads are modest compared to what strength-oriented lifters use, and also I'm not able to churn out hundreds of pushups/bodyweight squats etc.

For me it only takes a few weeks of focused work to get my pullup count up to about 15 reps, but however hard I try (added weight, grease the groove, rest pause) I seem unable to progress any further.

It seems to me that max reps in the pullup are a highly individual matter, depending not just on body composition, but also bone structure/leverage which may ultimately limit your possibilities. Therefore, comparing reps with other trainees is pretty pointless, just use our own past performance as a yardstick.
human vegetable
Active Member
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby Linnéa76 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:52 pm

What about negative pullups after having done proper ones to failure? Any objections?

Assisted pullups seem to be frowned upon, but they helped me get from -43 kg, through -36, -30 and -23
to unassisted pullups.
-Talk is cheap-
User avatar
Linnéa76
Moderator
 
Posts: 1870
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:34 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby Clem Snide » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:01 pm

When I couldn't do chinups, I did negatives. After a couple of weeks I could do positives.
User avatar
Clem Snide
Active Member
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:55 pm

Re: Negative pullups?!

Postby baldy » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:25 am

human vegetable wrote:
It seems like a distant dream when I used to be able to do 12 pullups. :cry:

Pullups are all about being skinny or being crazy strong. Which category do you fall into?


Baldy, not quite sure whether this is directed at me... I'm 6'2'', about 175 lbs, BF hovering around 10%. I hope that makes me "lean" rather than skinny.



Hey human vegetable, not directed at you in particular. Any one less fat that me is skinny and anyone stronger is crazy strong :)

human vegetable wrote:For me it only takes a few weeks of focused work to get my pullup count up to about 15 reps, but however hard I try (added weight, grease the groove, rest pause) I seem unable to progress any further.

It seems to me that max reps in the pullup are a highly individual matter, depending not just on body composition, but also bone structure/leverage which may ultimately limit your possibilities. Therefore, comparing reps with other trainees is pretty pointless, just use our own past performance as a yardstick.

I don't know about that, they are friggin hard to do and harder if you weight more. You need to try add bands, chains, kipping, muscle ups and clap pullups to your routine before you can claim to have exhausted all possibilities.

10% bf, that is practically single digits, you must be ripped.
"A wise man once said, "It's easier to buy smaller clothes, than to put on 5kg." ... Buzz
User avatar
baldy
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7305
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 10:23 am
Location: St Albans UK


Return to Bodybuilding and Training with Weights

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest