2004 Mr. Olympia

Lifting weights whether for bodybuilding, toning, or just for general fitness.

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Postby loreinski » Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:08 am

Keegan I just wantd to comment on your quote here:

I know body-building drugs are dangerous but there are habits like smoking that will kill more people in one day (globally) than all steroid-related deaths in history. We still look up to our uncles or grandmothers who smoke. We don't always appreciate it or approve of it, but the person is still a person. And with things like smoking or drinking it is worse because you affect other people (second hand smoke and drunk driving/other alcohol related injuries and deaths).

Look the problem with competitive body building and the industry behind it, is it's dishonest. Steroid abuse is rampant, and it is abuse. It isn't administrated safely nor is it promoted to be used safely. Guy and girls just load up. I know guys who took steroids, just because they wanted to look like the competitors, or look bigger than the door man at a club. Body Building industry prides itself on health and healthy image, yet steroids kill ya, or mess you up internally. I would rather associate with a person who honestly smokes and drinks, than some dishonest fool who is juiced - promoting health or so called training discipline. Its' bullshit.

I remember in the early nineties, all my friends were all into it the competition side of body building etc. I remember buying some herbal anabolic tablets. One guy loaded his fridge with actually steroids, we went around to his place, and I wanted to grab a VIT C - he told me they were in the fridge; without looking I popped open a container of oral steroids, nearly choked on the friggin' thing, before spitting it out.

I would rather watch wrestling, at least those guys don't pretend (well not the dramatics side, that's all pretend) there hasn't been abuse. They have all admitted to steroid and painkiller abuse, plus things like depression etc etc. Funny how wrestling is more honest than competitive bodybuliding these days. But I think the death tally in wrestling is promoted more.
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Postby JP » Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:42 am

loreinski, since when has pro bodybuilders been dishonest about their steroid use? Have a look at mags like Muscular Developement where peeps like Jay Cutler give out steroid advice etc. The only people who live in denial about it are Flex corporate (and their magazines) who fear to risk their profits and thats why want to keep the whole sport under a lie.
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Postby sensless » Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:41 pm

Since steroid use is not just unallowed in various sporting arenas, but it is also illegal to own and use them (in the US anyway), one would expect a certain amount of lies or ambiguity to exist in a sport federation that has every competitor using. The ambiguity and lies are just self-protection to some extent, so being honest about it could be self-incriminating. It would be like smoking pot. You can usually tell who the smokers are, but it doesn't mean they should run around shouting to the world that they smoke/own some weed. If the steroids were legal, I would have a bigger problem with the deception of its use.

Just my quick thought,

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Postby Quizeen » Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:59 pm

Pardon my ignorance, but how are all of these competitors getting into competition if they receive blood/urine tests? Do the sanctioning bodies "silently condone" their use?
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Postby muscle-militia » Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:37 pm

It does depend on the federation. Natural Bodybuilding federations - those who "drug free" is the only competitors are randomly tested throughout the year (me twice!) and at EVERY contest.
The other federations do not screen for drug use. However Insulin and HGH cant be detected anyhow!

Steriod has been used in muscle sports from as far back as 1930!!

The fact is, the huge guys do use. But if in that federation they all are - it is fair. It is not like one sprinter on a Nandralone cycle to boost outta the blocks against 'clean' runners. You gotta understand, those on roid train just as hard (at times even harder) and have just as hard diets. It is not just steriod though - diet drugs such as Clenbuterol and EPH25 are used to cut up too.

You may be aware of many high profile arrests for steriod supply (dennis James etc) but, as I mentioned, Bodybuilding is an easy target! It has been stated that over 70% of professional sportsmen (Soccer/American Football etc) use. But because of the huge money involved it is ignored, Sports councils hammering bodybuilding instead to make up the "we are clamping down" press.

Think of this - why was TGH invented to be undetectable - not for BB's thats for sure as they dont hide it. It was Track and field that it got leaked and made public (Balco).

As far as I am aware, it is differing classes of the same sport of Bodybuilding and people's choice. If people choose to use - I am ok with it as long as they get good advice and ask the right questions.
Yes there are dangers - but then that is the same in all extreme sports, from cars to horses.
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Postby Pete » Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:35 pm

I would just like to bring up one point that a lot of people wont know. Steroid don't make you bigger as such. You don't inject go home, hop in a bath, eat a light supper & wake up like Ronnie Coleman! Steroids allow you to work harder & longer & recover quicker than a natural can, they also let you hold more muscle than nature intended. So, you have to take gear, then work your arse off to get the size. People should have respect for the amount of time & effort they are prepared to put in. Sure they take drugs to reach there goals, but they are goals that you cannot reach as a natural, it's impossible! Even from Greek times top athletes have taken "potions" to enhance their abilities in one way or another. I don't condone drug use, but it has been about for 1000's of years & I feel bodybuilders are more open than baseball players, track & field, cyclists, weight lifters or infact any other sport (where drugs are used just as much, but as they aren't aiming at maximum muscle mass you don't see it so obviously).
I think the idea of natural contests & drug contests are great for bodybuilding (& other sports if you ask me), as it allows us naturals a level playing field & the steroid boys can compete too, each to their own.
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Postby muscle-militia » Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:02 pm

Pete - you said what I was tryin to say…(badly!)…ur bang on!
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Postby Quizeen » Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:08 pm

I don't think that the longevity of an activity necessarily justifies its continuation.

I certainly don't claim to have any real info about all of this, but I do have to wonder about the point of all of it. Why not just body build and work to capacity without the use of drugs? Why not just work to achieve what one's body can on its own?

It would be just as level a playing field if no one took drugs as it is if everyone does and all of the risks would be non-existent. Why not just be happy with one's physique based solely on work/nutrition etc. and not a drugged up version?

It almost seems like a non-issue. If the federations just tested cnsistently and took punitive action against doped-up competitors then competitions could morph back into a more natural state.
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Postby sensless » Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:24 pm

People like to see freaks. The drug use increases the frequency or amount of freakishness. That's my guess anyway.

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Postby muscle-militia » Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:26 pm

I truly do see your point and understand your perspective. But the world is full of what I believe are amazing folk who never except the norm, push boundaries, break records. Why climb everest when you can go around? Why go to the moon when Earth is ok? Why go for a land speed record?

Some are not happy with the ‘what if’s’ and take the risk. Over time it does become accepted. steroid when used correctly, with cycles and the support drugs are for the most part safe - it is the abuse that causes harm.
Super-size to these guys n girls is the ultimate goal, with big financial rewards/fame to boot. I have never known a pro push or even recomend steroid, but will offer advice when asked.
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Postby Pete » Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:43 pm

Trouble is people want the biggest or the fastest. The only way to get bigger or faster these days is through drug use. At the moment people cheat. I'd be happier if you had a natural league & a steroid league. Then you could have drugs administered by trained health care professionals & any contraindications could be acted upon, you get blood works etc regularly & proper cycles, not the crazy amounts some sites recommend. Then there would be less long term disease & death by the masses who can't get decent info, so go by "grapevine stories" about doses, cycles ect.
I personally believe what you put into your body is up to you. I wont do gear myself I my aim is to add as much mass as I can naturally to see how an ectomorph can respond to bodybuilding, but if my aim was to be a pro-bodybuilder I would have to take drugs, you'd have no option. On the other hand, if there were natural pros in the same heights the pros of today are at then I could consider becoming a natural pro, at the moment I've got no choice but to take drugs to compete.
One point in favour of Bodybuilding. At least we have natural contests. I feel sorry for the natural runner or cyclist. We at least accept there is a problem & you need different leagues for the drug-free.
Testing doesn't work. If you go on the net for a bit, or find a decent "guru" you can get masking agents for a lot of stuff, or find stuff that's undetectable. The takers are always one step ahead of the testers, only the very unlucky, slack or the stupid get caught (look how few olympic atletes got caught!). You can get away with drug taking relatively easily. But allowing "drugs divisions" you will herd all the drug users into one section & all the naturals into the other. Then you could choose the course you wish to take without the pressures to take drugs you've got today.
The trouble today is we've let cheating get so far that just about all strength, track & field, cycling, infact most events, all the top athletes are on gear, they've all been forced to cheat by the stupid system.
We maybe could eliminate drugs by year round spot check testing of all athletes, polygraphs etc, but there simply aren't the resources to keep sport clean, so the next best thing would be to split into drug & natural contests in sport.
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Postby J » Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:17 pm

It's the dishonesty that's the problem.

1. You buy some watermelon seeds. On the packet is a picture of a watermelon 5 feet in diameter. Actually the watermelon is only so big because of the radiation from the nearby nuclear power plant.

False advertising. They lied so you'd buy it. It's illegal.

2. You buy a bodybuilding mag expecting that the training instructions within will help you eventually look like the people giving the instructions.
Actually those people are filling their bodies with illegal drugs they don't mention at all in the magazine.

False advertising. It should be illegal. It's potentially more harmful to the buyers than any small watermelons. Some of the training routines will just leave the average person severely overtrained and feeling like shit.
Arnold comes to mind doing 25 sets on his chest. And then telling people to go out in the woods and do 100 sets of barbell squats. What an asshole.

I spent almost the first two years I lifted following the advice about "maximum intensity" every set, etc. I never gained any strength and felt like shit most of the time. Someone with money should sue.
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Postby sensless » Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:24 pm

"Arnold comes to mind doing 25 sets on his chest. And then telling people to go out in the woods and do 100 sets of barbell squats. What an a**hole. "

Arnold was pretty funny about it though. He constantly gave out poor advice on purpose to help keep himself at the top. "Milk is for babies, Men drink beer." comes to mind when I think of advice he gave during his prime. It was a shady tactic, no doubt about it.

I don't know for sure but steroids may not have been illegal in his heyday, so at that time taking them and recommending workouts that require the benefits they bring may not be fair to view with the same perspective as today.

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Postby Mary » Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:35 pm

So Arnold definitely took steroids then? Cause I know people who insist that he didn't.

Surely that should rule him out as a politician - if he took illegal drugs?
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Arnold and steroids

Postby VeganEssentials » Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:05 pm

Arnold took steroids (mostly oral tablets, from what I'd always heard), but his use was on the low end of what people use today. And, at the time they were not illegal, so I guess there's not much that can be said since at the time it was considered to be no worse than taking some extra protein powder for supplementation.

However, hearing about the stacks that people do now, you wonder how the hell more damage isn't done. I don't care what people use since everyone has to make their own choices, but it would definitely be a fine idea for it to become more to public knowledge that any normal muscle mag is going to have maybe 1-2% of its pictures of naturals and that all others will without question be on gear. Then again, should we post the same warning on every copy of Sports Illustrated since it's the same situation?

As mentioned, since the public perception is that steroids = huge person, this is why bodybuilding gets the short end when the majority of all professional athletes are jucing as well. The public figures there's no way that their favorite baseball/football/whatever star player could taking steroids because they aren't 300 lbs. ripped lean. Perhaps if most people were to be educated on what steroids actually do and how they don't turn everyone into a hulking mass of flesh then the attacks on bodybuilding wouldn't be so rampant.

Besides, if we go after bodybuilding, why don't we go after all professional sports, since obviously these people aren't being straightforward on how they acheive world-class feats through their use of anabolics/androgenics. It'd only be fair. Sure, their dosages may not be quite what they are for pro bodybuilders, but they aren't natural, so what's the real difference?

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