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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:34 pm
by floraluna
Hi soniczip,

I thought I'd provide my input, which may be a little different from that of others who've weighed in, though for the most part I agree.
I run ultras- 50k races mostly so far, and I just finished my first 50 miler this past weekend.
Because of the kind of events I am training for, I am sure I run more slowly during my long runs than you do during your marathon training long runs. When I trained for my first marathon, I never did a run over 18-20 miels without carrying water or accessing it somewhere. I use handheld water bottles in all my races and in any training run over a few hours. I also will usually eat something during any run that's much longer than two hours, but I don't like to eat until around the 1:45 or 2 hour mark. I'll take energy gels sometimes (the Clif brand are also my favorite) but more often I'll take something solid like some dates with the pits removed, replaced by almonds, or a vegan food bar (these have been discussed on the board before), or some other energy bar based somewhat on whole foods.
If you were doing a 20 miler without drinking any water or significantly pre-hydrating, and without taking in any calories, you probably were simply running out of immediately accessible energy for your muscles, in addition to getting dehydrated- both of which will lead to the feelings of fatigue you described. It sounds like you are learning these things by trial and error.

Hopefully this has been a little useful to you, let me know if you have any questions about my suggestions. I know a lot of fast marathon runners don't take in calories on the run- but someone who is finishing in under three hours is out there for a much shorter time than someone finishing in over 4. All the races I run are on trails with significant elevation gain and loss, so that is where my input is ocming from. For me, I'm out half a day on the trails for most of my long runs, and always have water and food. I can go indefinitely without running out of energy, as long as I pay attention to water, calories and salt (electrolytes).

Good luck!

running "indefinitely" !!!

PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:17 pm
by soniczip
Thanxxx everybody!

You all gave me lods of ideas and usefull information.

floraluna, you said:
[quote]I can go indefinitely without running out of energy, as long as I pay attention to water, calories and salt (electrolytes)

How long is "indefinitely"? If you mean it is possible to train 6 to 10 hours a day, or more like Scott Yurek, I wanna follow your method. How come so many people say not to train more than 32/37 km before a marathon? You and Marathon girl seem to think differently from most people.

Thanx again anyway.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:11 pm
by floraluna

I should amend my statement, I have only run straight for 12 hours and hiked straight for about 32 or so. For obvious reasons, problems other than food/water/salt balance come up after a while! (like being tired!)- and after a run longer than 25 miles, I can't do it again for at least a week.

There is a lot to be said for getting plenty of rest and none of us will see any performance gains if we don't allow our bodies to heal. As far as how long one exercises, how long one runs, it all depends on what our goals are. Particularly in running, there are so many different mentalities. To run a very fast marathon, it may be true that running anything over 20 miles is not useful. But when you are training for longer distances it gets tricky. Not many people would run a 50 mile race having never run longer than 20 miles. Many people only run long once a week (much ultra training mirrors marathon training, and just increases the once weekly long runs much more). However, I know of many ultrarunners who train with double workouts on weekends (for example, 40 miles one day, 30 the next)- and feel that this type of workout allows them to pursue the activities they enjoy, and also feel that it is good for their bodies. Two full weekend days or running in a row are challenging, but with this training done at a significantly slower speed than much marathon training, it may even be easier on the body (though maybe as tough on the endocrine system). I have heard over and over from ultrarunners that they recover much more quickly from a hilly 50 miler on trails than from a fast marathon on less hilly roads.

Of course, runners like Scott who are able to run long distances at a very high level (FAST!) are both gifted and work incredibly hard. Their bodies can handle the training load and they thrive. Not everyone can do this, and ultimately we are all an experiment of one.

Back to the issue of training volume, people run ultra distances on anything from an average of 30-40 miles per week, all in a long run, with only cross training during the week, to well over 100 miles per week, with only one day (if any) off from running. Some bodies thrive on 80-90+ mile weeks over an extended period of time, others can never maintain this training volume without getting injured. Listening to your body while keeping in mind that there is a world of different ways to train out there, is the way to go! :-) Whatever works best for you, and gives you the most enjoyment while helping you reach your goals, is in my opinion the system you should use.

I've rambled enough! (and I'm at work!)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:53 am
by Tarz
Soniczip - London running shops for ya:

London City Runner - 10 Ludgate Broadway
London Marathon Store - Long Acre
Sweatshop The City - Cousin Lane
Sweatshop Covent Garden - Endell Street
Sweatshop Fulham - 188 Fulham Road
Sweatshop North Finchley - 815 High Road
Sweatshop Teddington - 33 Broad Street
Run & Become - St James Park tube
Runners Need Camden Town - 34 Parkway
Runners Need Holborn - Proctor St
Runners Need - Strype St
Runnersworld - 333 Rayners Lane

runners shops in london

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:20 pm
by soniczip

Magnific. Thanxxx!

Have you ever tried Go Electrolyte? I tried it today for a medium 16km; it's quite tasty, but I think I'll appreciate it better during a longer run.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:04 pm
by chloe
hey im with marathon girl on the water thing.I also never drank water on my long runs and think though its probably not good my body adapted to coping without. I downloaded a beginners marathon training schedule then adapted it to suit myself,adding more kms on the short runs, but left the long runs as it suggested, and the taper. The longest was 32 kms.During the marathon i also drank at every water station,just a few gulps , i never stopped moving, and i also ate a small piece of banana every five kms or so after halfway, and then i had a gel thing which i took tiny drags on during the last ten kms. I ran home without a problem and feeling so strong that i actually sped up in the last seven kms,overtaking people the whole way home. I finished in 3.45.18. That was my first and now i think i can improve so much on that.
I also swear by hemp oil. About a teaspoon a day,its a super protein and a great energy source for the body to draw from.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:24 pm
by fredrikw
[quote="chloe"]hey im with marathon girl on the water thing.I also never drank water on my long runs and think though its probably not good my body adapted to coping without.

so you're saying your body adapted to being dehydrated and still perform? that goes against everything I've ever read about hydration and sport... are you sure you weren't just training suboptimally? have you tried training while properly hydrated? or perhaps you never needed to drink anything on your long runs, so your body really never adapted to anything?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:01 pm
by Barry
There's a vegan energy gel available in Holland and Barrett - I can't for the life of me think what the brand is but I tried one half way through a recent half marathon and I felt it really helped.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:06 pm
by chloe
yeah its totally possible my body didnt really need that much water, i trained doing all my distance runs in the winter and the spring, no hot days for me, and its also possible i was performing sub/optimally, but either way come the race day when i drank at EVERY drink station i had such an EASY run. My next one though, im planning on doing properly properly, that one was a try out of the distance mostly and went sooo much better than i had expected.!