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Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:08 pm
by jpowell
[quote="custerdome"]Tim Ferriss' book ... fruit has nothing to offer nutritionally

This suggestion makes me feel some doubt as to whether Tim Ferriss' book has much to offer nutritionally. Fruits not only contain the best quality of Vitamin C and some useful trace minerals, but many fruits are famously good sources of a range of useful antioxidants. So are spices and herbs, and even many vegetables, by the way, but there is probably some legitimate value in variety!

[quote="custerdome"]As someone who needs to lose 20 lbs ... Would it be wise to ... focus on vegetables and legumes

In my opinion, absolutely yes, but include a range of fruit, in sensible quantities, e.g. "an apple a day", rather than a couple of litres of apple juice a day. And focus on the quality: rich colour, strong flavour, etc. so that, when you can, a granny smith apple instead of a red gala apple or pink delicious of whatever sweet ones they're pushing hardest, and maybe add a few citrus fruits, 1 or 2 properly ripe bananas, maybe a kiwi fruit or two, just a few cherries or red grapes, maybe a pomegranate, a tamarillo or some berries... you get the idea. If that's too much, then I reckon either there must be quite a few relatively empty calories somewhere you can trim from your diet, or you can probably do a lot more exercise.

[quote="custerdome"]
Part of my confusion has to do with the fact that most studies regarding fructose and weight gain seem to focus on high fructose corn syrup rather than whole fruit.

Because any even remotely typical serving of HFCS has much more fructose (much more sugar) than typical fruit! Also, the nutritionists often seem to weigh into these debates in the media to point out that regular sugar (a disaccharide of fructose + glucose) metabolises to the same as HFCS anyway, so there is very little difference. I think you will find that, in fact, fruits normally contain a mixture of fructose, sucrose and glucose, which works out to a varying fructose:glucose end product ratio usually around 1:1. In other words, gram for gram, sugar from fruit is equivalent to sugar from cane grass or beets, or HFCS, except that eating a few pieces of fruit will give you a relatively small amount, together with some other useful nutrients.

[quote="custerdome"]
If you have any recommendations


I am not a nutritionist or into endurance sports but can I suggest...

a) Train as much as you safely can
b) Consider reducing caloric intake during any off periods from training, e.g. especially if you have a break for 2-3 days, but even potentially dinner the night before. This is all relative to YOUR needs/total energy use. The theory is this will allow better caloric intake/glycogen stores when you actually need them for exercise, on the same or lower total "calorie budget".
c) Get SLIGHTLY less calories overall than you use (trial and error), but don't fall into the trap of assuming that provides you the full solution for health, performance or even weight loss. Despite constant claims to the contrary, calorie calculations from food are at best a useful very rough approximation of what's happening in a complex system.
d) Low fat diets (within sensible limits) seem to work better for highly active endurance athletes, due perhaps mainly to actually burning enough energy that, say 10% of calories, is enough fat. If you go there, reduce fat intake gradually and listen to your body, your doctor or nutritionist for how it responds to at least 2-3 weeks of a given nutrition program, not how an 80/10/10 guru interprets the symptoms.

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:32 pm
by ColleenE
In addition to all the science that would disprove this, for me it does not pass one simple test. The **COMMON SENSE** test. What was the last time you met someone who said "oh man, I've got to lose 30 lbs, I've been laying waaayyyy too much into those Fuji apple slices at 9P :wink: M."

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:55 pm
by tal
[quote="jpowell"]d) Low fat diets (within sensible limits) seem to work better for highly active endurance athletes, due perhaps mainly to actually burning enough energy that, say 10% of calories, is enough fat. If you go there, reduce fat intake gradually and listen to your body, your doctor or nutritionist for how it responds to at least 2-3 weeks of a given nutrition program, not how an 80/10/10 guru interprets the symptoms.


This is silly, and potentially dangerous.

10% of calories from fat for someone on a 2000 calorie diet is 200 calories from fat, ergo 22g per day.

This is far too low.

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:56 pm
by sergio
[quote="ColleenE"]In addition to all the science that would disprove this, for me it does not pass one simple test. The **COMMON SENSE** test. What was the last time you met someone who said "oh man, I've got to lose 30 lbs, I've been laying waaayyyy too much into those Fuji apple slices at 9P :wink: M."


+1

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:25 am
by Koa
http://fivehourfitness.com/fruit-a-devil-in-disguise/

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:25 pm
by beforewisdom
I think I am going to go grab a grapefruit.

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:20 pm
by sergio
I ate almost half watermelon today. OMG what I've done! one moment in the lips forever in the hips!

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:57 pm
by beforewisdom
or ten minutes in the loo

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:30 am
by Fallen_Horse
I bet I could gain weight on 30 bananas a day. :D

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:57 am
by jpowell
[quote="Talyn"][quote="jpowell"]d) Low fat diets (within sensible limits) seem to work better for highly active endurance athletes, due perhaps mainly to actually burning enough energy that, say 10% of calories, is enough fat. If you go there, reduce fat intake gradually and listen to your body, your doctor or nutritionist for how it responds to at least 2-3 weeks of a given nutrition program, not how an 80/10/10 guru interprets the symptoms.


This is silly, and potentially dangerous.

10% of calories from fat for someone on a 2000 calorie diet is 200 calories from fat, ergo 22g per day.

This is far too low.


I think you missed the point of what I was saying. I was saying the low fat diets may work better for highly active endurance athletes than they do for the rest of us. For example, if someone who is very light, say 60kg, and can actually burn 4500 or 5000 kcal in a day without increasing body fat or muscle weight then 50g of fat and 100g of protein is very possibly not too bad after all. On the other hand, I would want more than both of those numbers, and slightly less on the energy side (but certainly more than 2000kcal.....!!!)

Endurance athletes often eat a lot of carbs. It works for them. What is silly about that?

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:29 am
by HumanGazelle
Hi custerdome, welcome to VF.

I would say that if you can already run a 1.50 half marathon, which is a decent time in itself, then losing weight is probably not the direct key to improving this time. You should consider looking at increasing the intensity of your training - doing shorter sessions, intervals, maybe core work. They will all benefit your running in ways that slow long runs don't tend to manage. I'd suggest you start a training log on VF and seek out some constructive criticism of what you're up to. Of course, losing weight is still a legitimate target in itself, if you want to. But I would tend to see this as a separate goal from improving your running time.

On a separate point, there are countless miracle diets out there and my gut reaction is to assume that Tim Ferriss' book is promoting just another one. I might be prejudiced, as I haven't even read it, but IMHO the best starting position to come to any health book is with healthy skepticism.

What I do know is that Tim Ferriss is a slick self-marketer, a snake-oil salesman, full of unsubstantiated claims and self-aggrandising praise. He first made money through an early dot com selling "brain" pills to make you smarter and his subsequent career trajectory has demonstrated a similar ability to exploit the internet to market himself... with blog posts, link popularity, SEO, a suspicious amount of 5-star reviews, and aggressive handling of his critics. Even his wikipedia page reads as if it's an advert for him. Check the background discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Timothy_Ferriss

Of course, none of the above paragraph means that his diet book is definitely bogus. But, well, it's food for thought ;)

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:46 pm
by custerdome
Again, thank you all for the great feedback.

HumanGazelle:

Will definitely start a training log here. No argument whatsoever regarding Ferris; he is obviously the marketing type.

jpowell (and everyone):

Are there any legumes in particular that you recommend in conjunction with running? I often eat hummus for instance, which I love the taste of, but it also makes me feel quite heavy. Also, do you have any recommendations on what food to put in my running bag during 2+ hour runs?

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:01 am
by Melody
There is a whole lot of nutritional dogma out there. Fruit is one of those things that is a huge point of contention amongst many of us in the 'biz. I can't tell you how many fellow trainers and lifters who eschew fruit, insisting it makes you huge. Of course, the majority of these people also think that bacon is the elixir of life, and all vegans are bound to shrivel up and die a miserable death, crushed under the weight of the air around them.

Here's the thing: fruit has sugar in it. That's why people are all up in arms about it.

HOWEVER

Fruit also provides a myriad of amazing nutrients, such as antioxidants, vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients, and fiber. Many types of fruit-- cherries in particular-- are highly anti-inflammatory. Eliminating them from your diet would be an unwise thing, sez me.

As someone who does a lot of research and writing about nutrition, I haven't found any studies to date showing any relationship to fruit consumption and weight gain (if you know of any, please point me to them). There are several showing that increased fruit and vegetable consumption leads to weight loss. There is also this interesting study showing that walkers with high meat/low fruit consumption have a higher BMI than people who eat less meat and more fruit. Even though I think BMI is a highly inaccurate measurement of body composition, it's something to think about. http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/vaop/ ... 1313a.html

Now, this doesn't mean you should eat unlimited amounts of it. But you can eat a pint or two of berries, or munch on an apple or two, or have a mango, etc, and be just fine.

Just remember this: Tim Ferriss is an excellent businessman. He is not a dietitian.

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:48 pm
by Fallen_Horse
[quote="Melody"]....
Now, this doesn't mean you should eat unlimited amounts of it. But you can eat a pint or two of berries, or munch on an apple or two, or have a mango, etc, and be just fine.

Just remember this: Tim Ferriss is an excellent businessman. He is not a dietitian.

But isn't this the point? Ferriss is simply comparing fruit to other foods in regards to weight loss and muscle gain. And for weight loss and muscle gain, I would agree with him that beans are better than fruit. For health? Obviously both in moderation would be the best, but moderation is exactly the problem that many overweight people have....

Re: Bitter and confused; does fruit make us fat?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:15 pm
by custerdome
[quote="Fallen_Horse"][quote="Melody"]....
Now, this doesn't mean you should eat unlimited amounts of it. But you can eat a pint or two of berries, or munch on an apple or two, or have a mango, etc, and be just fine.

Just remember this: Tim Ferriss is an excellent businessman. He is not a dietitian.

But isn't this the point? Ferriss is simply comparing fruit to other foods in regards to weight loss and muscle gain. And for weight loss and muscle gain, I would agree with him that beans are better than fruit. For health? Obviously both in moderation would be the best, but moderation is exactly the problem that many overweight people have....


+1

EDIT:

Following HumanGazelle's recommendation I have created a training log:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24315