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coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:20 am
by Lordmuppet
Can i just use coconut milk instead of coconut oil for cooking as the latter is waaaaaaay more expensive.

Tastes fine so i can't see why not right now

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:09 pm
by vCLaW
Coconut milk and coconut oil are rather different. Coconut oil is pretty much just fat. Whereas coconut milk is mostly water, with fat and a bit of carbs/protein etc.

Depends on what you are cooking. Probably more useful to use some sort of vegetable oil instead of coconut oil. Or margarine or shortening if you want a solid fat. Though they would probably give a different taste.

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:19 pm
by Lordmuppet
[quote="vCLaW"]Coconut milk and coconut oil are rather different. Coconut oil is pretty much just fat. Whereas coconut milk is mostly water, with fat and a bit of carbs/protein etc.

Depends on what you are cooking. Probably more useful to use some sort of vegetable oil instead of coconut oil. Or margarine or shortening if you want a solid fat. Though they would probably give a different taste.


I like coconut oil because of the high smoke point :) but yeah maybe should get another veg oil with high smoke point.

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:51 pm
by Adena
[quote="Lordmuppet"][quote="vCLaW"]Coconut milk and coconut oil are rather different. Coconut oil is pretty much just fat. Whereas coconut milk is mostly water, with fat and a bit of carbs/protein etc.

Depends on what you are cooking. Probably more useful to use some sort of vegetable oil instead of coconut oil. Or margarine or shortening if you want a solid fat. Though they would probably give a different taste.


I like coconut oil because of the high smoke point :) but yeah maybe should get another veg oil with high smoke point.


I believe safflower oil has a pretty high smoke point, but it's probably kind of expensive, too.

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:01 pm
by Lordmuppet
[quote="Adena"][quote="Lordmuppet"][quote="vCLaW"]Coconut milk and coconut oil are rather different. Coconut oil is pretty much just fat. Whereas coconut milk is mostly water, with fat and a bit of carbs/protein etc.

Depends on what you are cooking. Probably more useful to use some sort of vegetable oil instead of coconut oil. Or margarine or shortening if you want a solid fat. Though they would probably give a different taste.


I like coconut oil because of the high smoke point :) but yeah maybe should get another veg oil with high smoke point.


I believe safflower oil has a pretty high smoke point, but it's probably kind of expensive, too.

edited to remove bad source

edited to remove bad source

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:03 pm
by Adena
[/quote]Going by this http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/50/Smoke-Points-of-Various-Fats soy bean oil looks like a good bet unless there is some other reason not to use it. Probably pretty cheap.[/quote]


Gasp! Don't you know that soy will turn you into a girl and make you lose all strength??! :wink:

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:16 am
by Webb
Oils sold as salad oil or vegetable oil are usually all or mostly soy and fairly cheap. It's a good alternative depending on the application. For baked goods it would be best to go with another solid fat.

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:44 am
by thestoatyone
I'd have thought peanut oil would give you the best smoke point/cost balance no?

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:09 am
by alexander
Yes you can use it,but first you must boil it with water then let them become oil on their own. After that you can use that oil in frying or anything that you want to do.

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:32 am
by jpowell
[quote="Lordmuppet"]soy bean oil looks like a good bet unless there is some other reason not to use it.


There could be! What is the balance of n-6 vs n-3 ("omega 3") polyunsaturated fat honestly like in your diet? If you do a search on pubmed or another source of credible scientific validity, I think you'll find that on this one, the popular trainers' blogs are actually on the money, that is, depending on the specific health goal in question and the usual variability from one study to another, an optimum balance is probably between 2:1 and 5:1, and the health effects ranging from susceptibility to general inflammation to heart condition, to adiposity to brain health, quite wide ranging. In this light, the RDI of 10:1 looks like a typical public policy fudge of "what we hope some people might hope to achieve" rather than an optimum. Apparently, most people in the general population are doing worse than the 10:1, and vegans, unless we plan our diets properly, could be even worse than average on this point. I can only imagine this ratio is even more important if, (like me until recently), you do not take a DHA supplement.

Soy beans like most vegan foods are quite low in fat but also like most vegan foods have a very high n-6:n-3 ratio (well over 10:1). (Yes, I've been playing around with looking up data on all sorts of foods, even things like parsley and oats that we wouldn't normally think of as fat sources, to see how this pans out). The good news (to me anyway) is that since most of our fat intake is concentrated to seeds, nuts and cooking oils, it's relatively easy to adjust/compensate in terms of what types of fats we choose to eat.

Oils:
+1 peanut oil, higher in mono and sat fat than most,
fairly high smoke point, reasonable price
+ Macadamia is mainly sat fat and has about 15% of PUFAs as n-3, plus cheaper for me than coconut oil
and has a reasonably high smoke point for an unrefined oil (unrefined may be healthier?)
+ Avocado oil is the best on smoke point, cooks great (personal experience),
and here it's relatively affordable (YMMV)
+ Olive oil is mainly monounsaturated, I hardly use it but surprised about high smoke point
for some types. may be worth looking into after all, unless those varieties also taste like
olive oil, which for me would limit it to a few types of cooking
+ Mustard, linseed and perilla oil contain n3 positive ratios that can actually balance out
your diet but these may be best as cold only oils, e.g. in salad dressings, which is not
really what you're looking for. Still, the less unbalanced PUFAs you eat, the less of those
you may need to eat to compensate
~ Canola is actually fairly well balanced on this score, but there may be other draw backs
that make it not an ideal choice.
- Soy oil, corn oil, sunflower and safflower are all quite bad on this issue.

Thoughts/observations on other foods:
+ Walnuts have about 20% n3/total PUFAs. Good, but not enough for a compensatory/balancing function.
+ Wheat germ has 12% n3/PUFAs, very good relative to other staples, especially considering high Lysine content
~ Leaves are quite variable but not a high source of fat anyway. Some have a great ratio,
but unfortunately parsley is highly n6 positive
- Some claim pumpkin seeds are a good source of omega3s but available data doesn't seem to support this AT ALL!
+ Chia seeds, linseed, mustard, perilla and hemp seeds are actually high enough in omega3s to
balance out a well planned diet. Of these, linseed is by far the cheapest (probably ground or oil,
as I'm not sure whether whole seeds are really absorbed)
!= You will likely also have a lot of other n-6 rich foods in your diet... sunflower and pumpkin seeds (good sources
of Zinc), sesame (Tahini, Hummus, anyone?) most other nuts and seeds.... therefore it really seems wise to minimize gratuitous n-6 laden polyunsaturates by mostly preferring other types of oils

By the way, coconut milk/cream is great for cooking, makes great rich curries, it's just not a practical oil substitute. Shredded coconut may also be a more affordable/practical way to get some good coconut fat in (it is for me!)

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:24 am
by Lordmuppet
[quote="jpowell"][quote="Lordmuppet"]soy bean oil looks like a good bet unless there is some other reason not to use it.


There could be! What is the balance of n-6 vs n-3 ("omega 3") polyunsaturated fat honestly like in your diet? If you do a search on pubmed or another source of credible scientific validity, I think you'll find that on this one, the popular trainers' blogs are actually on the money, that is, depending on the specific health goal in question and the usual variability from one study to another, an optimum balance is probably between 2:1 and 5:1, and the health effects ranging from susceptibility to general inflammation to heart condition, to adiposity to brain health, quite wide ranging. In this light, the RDI of 10:1 looks like a typical public policy fudge of "what we hope some people might hope to achieve" rather than an optimum. Apparently, most people in the general population are doing worse than the 10:1, and vegans, unless we plan our diets properly, could be even worse than average on this point. I can only imagine this ratio is even more important if, (like me until recently), you do not take a DHA supplement.

Soy beans like most vegan foods are quite low in fat but also like most vegan foods have a very high n-6:n-3 ratio (well over 10:1). (Yes, I've been playing around with looking up data on all sorts of foods, even things like parsley and oats that we wouldn't normally think of as fat sources, to see how this pans out). The good news (to me anyway) is that since most of our fat intake is concentrated to seeds, nuts and cooking oils, it's relatively easy to adjust/compensate in terms of what types of fats we choose to eat.

Oils:
+1 peanut oil, higher in mono and sat fat than most,
fairly high smoke point, reasonable price
+ Macadamia is mainly sat fat and has about 15% of PUFAs as n-3, plus cheaper for me than coconut oil
and has a reasonably high smoke point for an unrefined oil (unrefined may be healthier?)
+ Avocado oil is the best on smoke point, cooks great (personal experience),
and here it's relatively affordable (YMMV)
+ Olive oil is mainly monounsaturated, I hardly use it but surprised about high smoke point
for some types. may be worth looking into after all, unless those varieties also taste like
olive oil, which for me would limit it to a few types of cooking
+ Mustard, linseed and perilla oil contain n3 positive ratios that can actually balance out
your diet but these may be best as cold only oils, e.g. in salad dressings, which is not
really what you're looking for. Still, the less unbalanced PUFAs you eat, the less of those
you may need to eat to compensate
~ Canola is actually fairly well balanced on this score, but there may be other draw backs
that make it not an ideal choice.
- Soy oil, corn oil, sunflower and safflower are all quite bad on this issue.

Thoughts/observations on other foods:
+ Walnuts have about 20% n3/total PUFAs. Good, but not enough for a compensatory/balancing function.
+ Wheat germ has 12% n3/PUFAs, very good relative to other staples, especially considering high Lysine content
~ Leaves are quite variable but not a high source of fat anyway. Some have a great ratio,
but unfortunately parsley is highly n6 positive
- Some claim pumpkin seeds are a good source of omega3s but available data doesn't seem to support this AT ALL!
+ Chia seeds, linseed, mustard, perilla and hemp seeds are actually high enough in omega3s to
balance out a well planned diet. Of these, linseed is by far the cheapest (probably ground or oil,
as I'm not sure whether whole seeds are really absorbed)
!= You will likely also have a lot of other n-6 rich foods in your diet... sunflower and pumpkin seeds (good sources
of Zinc), sesame (Tahini, Hummus, anyone?) most other nuts and seeds.... therefore it really seems wise to minimize gratuitous n-6 laden polyunsaturates by mostly preferring other types of oils

By the way, coconut milk/cream is great for cooking, makes great rich curries, it's just not a practical oil substitute. Shredded coconut may also be a more affordable/practical way to get some good coconut fat in (it is for me!)


thanks for that! I ended up finding quite a cheap source of coconut oil so am using that. I'm already aware of the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio issue but honestly decided life was too short as when i ran the numbers and arranged a decent ratio, a tub of olives would totally throw out the balance and I looooooove my olives.

Not sure that's true that types of olive oil have a high smoke point. I had read the opposite I think. True that some types are worse than others, Extra virgin has an even worse smoke point than regular. At least that's what i remember from my research, I could be wrong.

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:11 pm
by jpowell
[quote="Lordmuppet"]
thanks for that! I ended up finding quite a cheap source of coconut oil so am using that. I'm already aware of the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio issue but honestly decided life was too short as when i ran the numbers and arranged a decent ratio, a tub of olives would totally throw out the balance and I looooooove my olives.


How so? Cronometer tells me only 1.2g of omega6s in 100g of pickled olives. For a high fat food, that seems pretty low. To balance that out, couldn't you bring yourself to maybe chop up a spring onion, a small tomato, half a red capsicum (or any other salad ingredients you prefer), and shake through half a teaspoon of linseed oil plus a little lemon juice? If you're on an ultra high calorie diet or can't afford to eat salad, maybe just eat the flax oil or dip bread in it?

[quote="Lordmuppet"]
Not sure that's true that types of olive oil have a high smoke point. I had read the opposite I think. True that some types are worse than others, Extra virgin has an even worse smoke point than regular. At least that's what i remember from my research, I could be wrong.


I had thought the same as you, that olive oil burns very easily, but both your references state that olive pomace oil and extra light olive oil have extremely high smoke points, higher smoke points than almost everything that I use. On the other hand, one site is trying to justify always cooking with a mixture of olive oil and butter, so "cooking for engineers" could be a codephrase for "cooking for people with an inexplicable moral objection to nutritional science". They justify butter with "it's high in vitamins, antioxidants and EFAs". While I've seen those claims before, without cogent rationalization, didn't really believe them, and wouldn't consume butter anyway, I thought I'd check up on them. Seems I was right to disbelieve. According to cronometer (using USDA lab data), per 10 MJ butter doesn't even meet the RDI for any one vitamin. Of course, water soluble B amd C vitamins are particularly low, and the Vitamin D (almost on target) is probably added anyway. The EFAs claim is nonsense, since by definition, EFAs are the ones we *need* SOME of (albeit a very small amount), i.e. polyunsaturates. Antioxidants (carotenes) seemed the most credible, since butter is yellow, however if google is my friend "antioxidant butter" is cocoa butter or shea butter rofl, and to be honest, pure palm fruit oil is visibly much more coloured than butter or even free range organic egg yolks, and other foods like spirulina, green leaves and even papaya, sweet potatoes, pumpkins and carrots are probably also better sources of carotenoids.

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:43 pm
by Lordmuppet
[quote="jpowell"][quote="Lordmuppet"]
thanks for that! I ended up finding quite a cheap source of coconut oil so am using that. I'm already aware of the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio issue but honestly decided life was too short as when i ran the numbers and arranged a decent ratio, a tub of olives would totally throw out the balance and I looooooove my olives.


How so? Cronometer tells me only 1.2g of omega6s in 100g of pickled olives. For a high fat food, that seems pretty low. To balance that out, couldn't you bring yourself to maybe chop up a spring onion, a small tomato, half a red capsicum (or any other salad ingredients you prefer), and shake through half a teaspoon of linseed oil plus a little lemon juice? If you're on an ultra high calorie diet or can't afford to eat salad, maybe just eat the flax oil or dip bread in it?

[quote="Lordmuppet"]
Not sure that's true that types of olive oil have a high smoke point. I had read the opposite I think. True that some types are worse than others, Extra virgin has an even worse smoke point than regular. At least that's what i remember from my research, I could be wrong.


I had thought the same as you, that olive oil burns very easily, but both your references state that olive pomace oil and extra light olive oil have extremely high smoke points, higher smoke points than almost everything that I use. On the other hand, one site is trying to justify always cooking with a mixture of olive oil and butter, so "cooking for engineers" could be a codephrase for "cooking for people with an inexplicable moral objection to nutritional science". They justify butter with "it's high in vitamins, antioxidants and EFAs". While I've seen those claims before, without cogent rationalization, didn't really believe them, and wouldn't consume butter anyway, I thought I'd check up on them. Seems I was right to disbelieve. According to cronometer (using USDA lab data), per 10 MJ butter doesn't even meet the RDI for any one vitamin. Of course, water soluble B amd C vitamins are particularly low, and the Vitamin D (almost on target) is probably added anyway. The EFAs claim is nonsense, since by definition, EFAs are the ones we *need* SOME of (albeit a very small amount), i.e. polyunsaturates. Antioxidants (carotenes) seemed the most credible, since butter is yellow, however if google is my friend "antioxidant butter" is cocoa butter or shea butter rofl, and to be honest, pure palm fruit oil is visibly much more coloured than butter or even free range organic egg yolks, and other foods like spirulina, green leaves and even papaya, sweet potatoes, pumpkins and carrots are probably also better sources of carotenoids.

fair enough on both counts

1) i'll relook into calculating the omegas with the Cronometer (what is this?) and see if i can do it :)

2) yeah, on reflection, those things i linked to are crappy sources in retrospect. If anyone (including yourself) can suggest better sources I'll happily edit to link to those instead! :) So yeah good catch!

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:56 pm
by Catt Queen
[quote="Lordmuppet"]
1) i'll relook into calculating the omegas with the Cronometer (what is this?) and see if i can do it :)


http://cronometer.com/

Re: coconut milk versus coconut oil

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:15 pm
by jpowell
[quote="Lordmuppet"] If anyone (including yourself) can suggest better sources I'll happily edit to link to those instead!


No, unfortunately I don't really have a better source on this issue, and there is still the possibility that about olive oil they are right and we were wrong. ;-) If you really care, some personal home experimentation while not particularly scientific may give you a reasonable feel for the plausibility of the claim. Actually, I may try (but not necessarily with a huge degree of urgency/immediacy).

Theoretically, wikipedia might be marginally more objective and complete. It doesn't seem to be particularly more informative on this, however, and uses one of your references as one of its main references. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point