Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

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Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby jpowell » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:45 pm

One of my current nutritional concerns as a vegan athlete is getting adequate Lysine for muscle repair. I understand many address this by consuming lots of protein from soy, which is not the approach I want to take. Also, for many endurance athletes this may be less primary an issue - I play a sport where the ideal conditioning is more in terms of fast twitch muscle fibre and short time span high intensity performance.

Also, I am trying now to get a high percentage of raw foods, without necessarily ever aiming to be 100% raw or making it my primary concern, but I think at least 50-80% raw would be good for me. Hence I'm very interested in suggestions which are viable as raw foods, but if cooked foods offer an easier, better or more attractive solution for my needs I will definitely eat them!

I'm not sure what my exact lysine requirement is, but as a guide, I worked out that 100-150g in total of protein/aminos daily helped for my target activity level and muscle conditioning, as a vegetarian previously consuming lots of skim milk and eggs. Getting this total amount of protein as a vegan seems easy enough, but the first sources I looked at, grains and nuts, are apparently both low in lysine, and I want to minimize soy.

So far on my list of lysine sources are:
- Brewers yeast seems an OK source but there's a (low) limit to how much I can eat of it
- Fenugreek which I want for other reasons too, is apparently a great source, but again maybe not huge quantities
- Lentils and chickpeas definitely but I have to cook them, plus they're high in sulfur, so I'm hoping to find additional sources rather than relying on these 100%

Any other suggestions I can look into would be extremely helpful. Thanks in advance.
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby sosso » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:54 pm

Quinoa? You can sprout it instead of cooking it.
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby Fallen_Horse » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:13 am

Are there forms of raw tempeh? It's soy, but it sounds like you are cutting out quite a bit of soy from your diet anyway...
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby beforewisdom » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:46 am

From Jack Norris R.D., cofounder of Vegan Outreach on his nutrition site, everything vegans need to know about lysine from a Registered Dietitian veganhealth.org
Last edited by beforewisdom on Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby jpowell » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:00 am

Wow, very quick and helpful responses. Pistachio nuts (hopefully I can find them unsalted) and quinoa both seem like "can do" items. Actually, I've never eaten quinoa before but I will buy some today. Pistachios are tasty and easy to eat. Thinking about the sprouting angle, perhaps I overlooked mung beans too readily also.

For want of a better assumption, I will trial a total daily Lysine target of around twice the US RDA, i.e. 75mg/kg bw or about 6g to be safe, since my prior protein target was about twice their RDA and the difference might be accounted for by increased muscle breakdown activities, greater emphasis on "optimal" vs. "adequate" nutrition and/or the possibly/allegedly higher protein needs of vegetarians.

Possibly I could include some tempeh or edamame occasionally - I'm quite happy with the taste and macronutritional profile (i.e. prot:fat ratio) of either, they are relatively cost effective and raw enough for me to eat sometimes (I don't want to get overly zealous about raw) - however I am trying to avoid the possible phytoestrogen risks with soy by absolutely minimizing all soy products, so we'll so how things go.
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby tal » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:07 am

What is the reason why you don't want to consume soy?
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby sergio » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:12 am

[quote="Talyn"]What is the reason why you don't want to consume soy?

[quote="jpowell"] however I am trying to avoid the possible phytoestrogen risks with soy by absolutely minimizing all soy products, so we'll so how things go.
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby baldy » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:23 am

[quote="sergio"][quote="Talyn"]What is the reason why you don't want to consume soy?

[quote="jpowell"] however I am trying to avoid the possible phytoestrogen risks with soy by absolutely minimizing all soy products, so we'll so how things go.

Might be worth reading this study, before you make your life a misery avoiding soya.
Hamilton-Reeves JM, Vazquez G, Duval SJ, Phipps WR, Kurzer MS, Messina MJ (2010). "Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men: results of a meta-analysis". Fertil Steril. 94 (3): 997–1007. doi:10.1016/j.fertnstert.2009.04.038. PMID 19524224.
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby tal » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:40 am

[quote="sergio"][quote="Talyn"]What is the reason why you don't want to consume soy?

[quote="jpowell"] however I am trying to avoid the possible phytoestrogen risks with soy by absolutely minimizing all soy products, so we'll so how things go.


Sorry I missed that bit.

Phytoestrogen risks have been debunked many times here. I don't see why it is a valid reason. If you are that concerned about lysine then incorporate a bit of soy into your predominantely raw diet. Most types of beans are also high in lysine (or could it be leucine... please correct me if I'm wrong).
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby Linnéa76 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:21 am

Cutting out milk, which contains actual mammalian oestrogen (and other hormones), and instead consuming soy products should in fact lower the oestrogenic activity in your body.
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby powerlifer » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:20 pm

You will have a hard time eliminating phyto-estrogen sources from your diet completely as all plant foods contain them. Infact some beans/legumes are actually richer phyto-estrogen sources than soy.

Phyto-estrogens don't work in the way that they are feared, i.e increasing estrogen. Phyto-estrogens are very weak mimicking estrogenic compounds which dock at receptor sites so that more harmful estrogens aren't absorbed. The phyto-estrogens in soy i.e the isoflavones have shown numerous health benefits in many studies including reduction of hormonal induced cancers.
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby beforewisdom » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:27 pm

[quote="sergio"][quote="Talyn"]What is the reason why you don't want to consume soy?

[quote="jpowell"] however I am trying to avoid the possible phytoestrogen risks with soy by absolutely minimizing all soy products, so we'll so how things go.



Other opinions about the anti-soy hysteria. I tried to only collect views that can be traced back to people with relevant degrees and research experience:
http://beforewisdom.com/blog/category/soy
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby beforewisdom » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:31 pm

I've eaten soy foods and other food with phytoestrogens in them every day for over 30 years and consuming those foods have not feminized me at all:

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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby jpowell » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:47 pm

It is very possible I may be over-concerned by some kind of FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) campaign against soy that has the intention (but in my case, not the effect), of attacking the idea of veganism or vegetarianism. I am not seriously considering continued dairy consumption, and would never have entertained eating meat.

Linnéa76 I am sure you are right as to cutting out dairy helping, but I will do so regardless.

In regards to the links, they dispel some concern, however to my reading the thrust of Jack Norris comments in particular seems to be:
a) Soy is (much) richer in phytoestrogens compared to other vegan protein sources
b) At low to moderate levels, they don't make much difference
c) They might make some difference in some or many cases, even to a clinical level in rare cases

My concern level if the phytoestrogens do make a difference would be at WAY below a clinical/medical problem level, in fact any inhibition of optimal testosterone levels for sport and physiological training adaptation would be ideal to avoid.

Therefore I will probably remain (needlessly) cautious with soy, and the 2 cups (not that much relative to my protein intake?) will be my upper limit, probably not even that every day. It seems clear there are other vegan solutions which likely provide as good or better a solution to my overall nutrition objectives, even if they take slightly more work.
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Re: Vegan (ideally good raw) lysine sources other than soy

Postby beforewisdom » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:16 pm

[quote="jpowell"]It is very possible I may be over-concerned by some kind of FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) campaign against soy


This is a popular news article reporting on a single study of which I do not know of the quality, but it is good for a perspective. Some people actually set out to intentionally produce feminization and fertility issues. What they found was they had to use isoflavones in such high quantities that they had to use concentrated soy extracts as the subjects could not possibly get the same doses of isoflavones from eating soy foods.

http://beforewisdom.com/blog/soy/eat-your-soy-boys/
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