Raw food

Any queries about vegan diet, nutrition, dieting, bulking and healthy eating in general. Diets and food from vegan perspective.

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8-1-1

Postby XkillerX » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:01 pm

Image Image

[code]HAI
CAN HAS RWF00D?
PLZ OPEN DURAIN FROOT?
AWSUM THX
VISIBLE "BEGIN HA EMULATION MODE"
O NOES
INVISIBLE "ERROR!"
KTHXBYE[/code]


BEGIN HA EMULATION MODE

Hi this is the durianrider himself, I've ridden 900 kms just last night on my bamboo bike aided just by water and my 20 kilos of bananas lol!

I see Gelert is still being a hater! You need to stop refuting god, ehrm, HYPERENZYMES and just embrace nature lolz!

Even you can not argue that fruit trees take less space than crops, are environmentally friendlier and provide you with shade and shelter when you stop for a brake and to eat five piece of raw ripe durian!

So come on, folks!

Give it up for the fruits!

Eat some raw food, let your mind get huge!
Activists are the engineers of the soul. That's why governments lock them up.
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Re: Raw food

Postby VeganGraham » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:49 pm

[quote]I enjoy the food and the way it makes me feel

I enjoy toast and the way it makes me feel more than you enjoy raw food and the way it makes you feel.
Therefore, cooking food twice is better than not cooking it at all.
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Re: Raw food

Postby baldy » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:05 pm

[quote="Big Good Wolf"][quote]I enjoy the food and the way it makes me feel

I enjoy toast and the way it makes me feel more than you enjoy raw food and the way it makes you feel.
Therefore, cooking food twice is better than not cooking it at all.

You are very wrong here Big Good Wolf because raw soft white bread is way better than your cooked toasted poison. The only time to make toast is if the bread is stale.
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Re: Raw food

Postby beforewisdom » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:28 pm

[quote="baldy"]
You are very wrong here Big Good Wolf because raw soft white bread is way better than your cooked toasted poison.


Um, bread is baked :). Baking is cooking :).

Then again people who go on and on about "living foods" and "whole foods diets" don't have a problem with scarfing down protein powders which aren't foods at all, but highly processed supplements.
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Re: Raw food

Postby VeganGraham » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:32 pm

I always cook my toast in an electric toaster though, so the free electrons circulating the heater elements are absorbed by the outer carbon layer of the toast where they are more easily digested.
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Re: Raw food

Postby Gelert » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:57 pm

People, chillax. Raw toast is where it's at.

I have no preconceptions as to what a "raw food looney" is like, let alone whether some poster on the internet is one or not. Most of the people following a raw food diet I have met in person have seemed perfectly sincere and intelligent people who are committed to their lifestyle/mode of eating. Some of the people have been a little bit keener, ready to evangelize and I suspect there's often an element of delusion or exploitation in their motivation. One or two have been positively barking. Such is life, and such is any given cause - raw foodism, veganism. Raw toast.

[quote="Maddy"]People are going to get defensive if someone who really didn't spend that long doing something (whatever the reasons) dismisses their experiences as placebo - that is an unfair comment


I'm addressing your point here:

[quote]And clearly science has some holes otherwise no one would be feeling good eating raw food when according to you there is no basis in science for this to work.


Which is not exactly a paradigm for "fair and balanced" comment!

A placebo effect does not invalidate your experience. Far from it. It doesn't undermine the outcome one bit - just the exact mechanism of it.

With the more usual forms of placebo, the bigger and brighter the colour of the smartie given, and the more praiseworthy the person administering it is about its efficacy, the less pain the patient has. Nobody would dismiss that the patient is feeling less pain, but if someone starts waffling on about E numbers in the smartie binding to arachidonic acid receptors or something like that, well I'd be a little suspect in the absence of evidence to support that claim.

So just so I make myself clear by repetition ad nauseum:

1. I'm not dismissing Maddy's experience, or CoeyCoey's experience, or anyone else's. So please, let's cut the victim game. Thus far the only experience which has been dismissed here is mine - because I allegedly ate too much fruit, or didn't stick with it for long enough. Or something. I'm waiting for someone to try the "nocebo" argument! Funny that. I'm sure plenty of post-hoc invocation will go on. This is yet another reason why experience on the level of n=me is not such a great yardstick.

2. I'm not actually dismissing the potential for raw food diets to make someone feel good. I'm wording that very carefully.

What I am sceptical of is much of the reasoning used to advocate such diets. It either comes down to the same ol' or the argument of "try it, it will make you feel good" or "don't knock what you haven't tried".

I'm sure we could make a case for tobacco smoking, or alcohol abuse, wearing odd socks, cooked food, or ritualized indecent exposure on public transport - anything under the sun - with those arguments.

For as long as I can remember, when either type of claim has been challenged here on VF, the response is usually a mixture of bluster and vitriol. Biased studies this and flawed science that. It is never rebutted with clear, objective evidence. Extraordinary claims do need extraordinary evidence, so maybe that's why it's hard to come by. If, for example, what's alleged about enzymes is true, it would radically alter our knowledge of biochemistry. It could lead to extraordinary advances in biotechnology and medicine. Sadly I doubt that is the case.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but in the absence of evidence and the default slanderous response of posters like CoeyCoey, forgive that scepticism.

Maybe that's why these discussions do get a little heated, because one way or another there are some very big, shiny smarties in the raw foodism pillbox.
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Re: Raw food

Postby beforewisdom » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:22 pm

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Last edited by beforewisdom on Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Raw food

Postby beforewisdom » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:34 pm

[quote]
And clearly science has some holes otherwise no one would be feeling good eating raw food when according to you there is no basis in science for this to work.


I'm not aware of the scientific community making any formal claims that people who eat raw food diets will not feel good. Basic biochemistry, which was probably in existence long before the beliefs of raw foodists, independently describes how human digestive physiology works. Some people who have had a biology class, who remember this and who encounter raw foodists have pointed this discrepancy out. So it isn't about "science has some holes", science isn't saying anything on the issue or raw foodist ontology.
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Re: Raw food

Postby beforewisdom » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:36 pm

Has the thought ever occurred to some raw foodists that they feel better simply because they are eating more produce and less junk than they were before? No disrespect.
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Re: Raw food

Postby Gelert » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:55 pm

[quote]Has the thought ever occurred to some raw foodists that they feel better simply because they are eating more produce and less junk than they were before?


I'd suspect this is entirely possible, but when you're asked to evaluate on the level of evidence that "I feel better" (n = 1, with a very subjective indicator of performance) it's hard to say, isn't it?

[quote="beforewisdom"][quote="Gelert"]
A placebo effect does not invalidate your experience. Far from it. It doesn't undermine the outcome one bit - just the exact mechanism of it.


If you have to make that point, wouldn't having to do so call into the question the claim that the person you are addressing is also working in science? No disrespect meant to anyone in this thread.


I wouldn't like to speculate too broadly since the exposure to specific concepts and experimental design skills may vary from degree curriculum to degree curriculum and field to field.

Nevertheless I introduce placebos as a type of control in experimental design and consequently the concept of a placebo effect in the second lecture of a course on research skills I teach to first year undergraduates in biosciences, about ten days into their Bachelor of Science degrees.

Ironically, it's at the suggestion of a geochemist friend of mine who teaches similar courses at his University that I use an animal experiment to do so - the story of Tusko, the elephant who was given 300 mg of LSD the day after a "placebo" of several million units of penicillin. A shocking story for all sorts of ethical reasons that need no introduction here but one with appalling experimental design too. No doubt they'll hear about other animal experiments in their studies from other lecturers, but I'm kinda glad that the first one they encounter shows up the shoddy quality of work that often leads to such terrible waste of life.

I'd certainly hope that any experimentalist, even if unaware of placebo type effects specifically, is aware of the potential for unintentional biases and guards against it in their experimental design by the application of suitable controls, ample replication, randomisation and where appropriate, blinding prior to rigourous and appropriate statistical testing as a minimum. It ought to be raw toast and butter stuff even for degrees which are, if anything, underpriced.
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Re: Raw food

Postby CoeyCoey » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:20 pm

Gelert,

I see. You can't bash me based on the enzyme thing because I never made such claim. So now you are claiming a placebo effect? And your basis of this claim is what? You are the one making claims with no evidence. You are exactly what you detest the most.

And there is science that supports raw foods. You latched on to the enzyme argument, but you ignore the vitamin argument. Many vitamins are effected by heat, so eating a raw diet can increase the amount of vitamins a person consumes and might just make them feel better. This is not a placebo effect if they were deficient in those vitamins.

Omega 3's are also damaged by heat which increases the already high omega 6 to omega 3 ratio.

Boiling can leach out a significant amount of fiber and nutrients from food.

Baking, grilling, and frying can produce carcinogens.

Simply because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it won't for other people, and simply because some raw foodists make false claims doesn't make raw food unnatural or a bad way to eat.

You need to open your mind and understand that your science is merely an infant and cannot grasp the complexities of nutrition.
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Re: Raw food

Postby ninearms » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:00 pm

That last line is definite signature material. Epic lulz.
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Re: Raw food

Postby Gelert » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:38 pm

[quote="CoeyCoey"]I see.


I do hope so.

[quote]You are the one making claims with no evidence.


Only because you're setting the burden of proof so ridiculously low at the level of "don't knock what you haven't tried".

[quote]You are exactly what you detest the most.


Actually, what I despise the most are snide fuckwitted bullshit merchants who must be positively orgasmic if ignorance were bliss. A subtle difference. As beforewisdom would say, no disrespect meant to anyone in this thread.

[quote]So now you are claiming a placebo effect? And your basis of this claim is what?


I'm not claiming that it's a placebo effect. Since you so casually dismiss science, you may be ignorant of the scientific method's tendency to use these things called hypotheses. Maddy suggested that science must have holes in it if it found no basis to raw diets but people felt good. This would make raw diets something of the paranormal, or mean that science has to be binned. Either proposition is a bit extreme, would you not agree? So if we have the two suppositions: people feeling good with no "scientific explanation" and apply Occam's razor we arrive at a well-documented phenomenon of human behaviour - the placebo effect - as a hypothesis. As I've outlined, there are quite a few observations supporting its validity!

OK:

[quote]Boiling can leach out a significant amount of fiber and nutrients from food.

Definite "significant" and what is the implication of this?

[quote]Baking, grilling, and frying can produce carcinogens.

I presume you're referring to acrylamide. I know a fair bit about acrylamide because I used to handle it in quantities of tens of grams at a time. Fuck, I once had 400 grams of it blow up in a fume cupboard. Another time I got about 90 mL of it spilled on me. So trust me I take acrylamide and its health risks seriously.

But what does any of this have to do with food? Well, you would be right that (over)heating food can drive the formation of small quantities of acrylamide. Micrograms of it per kilogram. The World Health Organisation estimates that the average human exposure to dietary acrylamide (i.e. from cooked food) is less than 0.8 micrograms per kilogram of body weight. This is 1/500th the exposure level required before its behaviour as a neurotoxin becomes apparent. Nobody's been able to determine a concentration at which it is dangerous as a carcinogen. But a recent study of 45,000 Swedish men found absolutely no evidence of an association between acrylamide intake and colorectal cancer (Larsson et al. [2009] Eur. J. Cancer. 45:513)

And this is not a problem of cooking, it's a problem of over cooking. I understand you can halve the concentration of acrylamide in "french fries" by changing cooking method.

I know how much you appreciate "personal experience" so here's one on acrylamide. Several years ago, a postdoc researcher decided to commit suicide by drinking a litre of 40% acrylamide. Last I heard he's still alive and well.

There are other toxic compounds which you may be referring to, such as heterocyclic amines or polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Well according to the food standards agency, you can avoid these by not consuming meat or fish - so if you're vegan, it's not a problem. (http://www.eatwell.gov.uk/asksam/health ... q/#A221179)

So, if you don't overcook your chips, and stay off the meat, this is a bit of a non issue. Someone used a delightful phrase about throwing the baby out with the bathwater earlier. I'll throw that right back at anyone who goes 100% raw for this reason.

[quote]Many vitamins are effected by heat, so eating a raw diet can increase the amount of vitamins a person consumes and might just make them feel better.

Possibly. But would not a balanced diet which involves a range of fruit and vegetables do the trick just as well? So is this not a baby/bathwater again? And if you wish to follow a vegan diet, I wonder what your stance on vitamin B12 is. I doubt that B12 supplements could ever be classed as "raw".

For many vitamins, it is also a case that overcooking (or prolonged cooking, or pressure cooking) is the culprit rather than cooking per se...


[quote]Omega 3's are also damaged by heat which increases the already high omega 6 to omega 3 ratio.

Omega 3s are damaged by a little bit of everything. But I do note the most interesting development of chocolate chip cookies containing high levels of omega 3s. In a trial they found that >95% of the ω3 fatty acids were still present and not oxidized when stored for a month at 35 degrees C (Borneo et al. [2007] J. Food Sci. 72:S049).

So rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater for so many different mistaken reasons, might it not be better to be vegan, not overcook your food, get a varied diet and occasionally have a nice cup of tea and a chocolate chip cookie or two?
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Re: Raw food

Postby thestoatyone » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:31 pm

ω3 cookies? Recipe in the recipe section please, kthnxbi.
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Re: Raw food

Postby Fallen_Horse » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:57 am

[quote="CoeyCoey"]You need to open your mind and understand that your science is merely an infant and cannot grasp the complexities of nutrition.


[quote="ninearms"]That last line is definite signature material. Epic lulz.


Applause all around!
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