Raw food

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Re: Raw food

Postby Maddy » Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:51 pm

Gelert so it didn't work for you

But it does for others

Your experience does not invalidate theirs.

And clearly science has some holes otherwise no one would be feeling good eating raw food when according to you there is no basis in science for this to work. Although raw food is not really that new it is only recently it has had much attention paid to it due to celebrities and the fact that in mainstream eyes it is seen as yet another fad diet although many who try it are looking at it as a lifesyle rather than a diet.

If it had stayed nice and quiet then we would not be having discussions such as this

As for the concern about the effect raw foodism is having on the Vegan label - well sorry but thats tough. It is happening because Vegans are still considered oddball and most people can actually 'get' to a certain extent eating raw veg but not raw meat and eggs and dairy and such like. it is the very oddity of Veganism that makes people associate the two and lets face it most raw foodist are essentially vegans who chose to eat a higher percentage of their food in a raw state. Some people chose to label themselves differently, thats up to them - there will always be some people who chose to differentiate themselves from the norm, thats their concern.

If it works and makes you feel good then great - if it doesn't then find something that does
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Re: Raw food

Postby Gelert » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:34 pm

[quote="Maddy"]Gelert so it didn't work for you

But it does for others

Your experience does not invalidate theirs.


And your experience, or that of CoeyCoey does not invalidate mine either.

I make these very points in my post!


Yet the elastic yardstick of human experience is the only thing raw foodists urge others to measure raw foodism by.

Worth deploying Ben Goldacre's quote about the "plural of anecdote is not evidence" perhaps?

[quote]And clearly science has some holes otherwise no one would be feeling good eating raw food when according to you there is no basis in science for this to work


Can I ask again what field and to what level you worked in as a researcher? Unlike CoeyCoey and his attack on Big Good Wolf I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you do know something about something, but the p values to reject that null hypothesis are picking up more and more asterisks.

Eating raw food I have no problem with. In fact I'm sure a balanced diet with a fairly high proportion of raw whole foods is fairly good for you at least.

Raw foodism as a doctrine is what I have a problem with, because it makes many claims which don't have a basis in logic or science.

Chief among these is the set of arguments surrounding "living enzymes". These claims are repeated so often but as I (and even high school level science courses!) have shown from a theoretical basis, and urged you to see for yourself on an experimental basis - are exceptionally unlikely. They take into account the possibility that (rotting) plants contain enzymes which may aid their digestion which are destroyed by heat - 100% fine on the science there. But they completely fail to take into account the same enzymes are vulnerable to extremely acidic pH or human digestive enzymes. Fail.

So, if you come and tell me that your raw foods are making you feel great because they contain living enzymes, and that science must be wrong as a result if it says that's impossible, I can give you two words:

placebo effect

Since I teach even my first year undergrads about placebo effects, I'm sure you're familiar with them no matter what your background is as a researcher. If not, a few minutes research with a search engine should give you some food for thought.
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Re: Raw food

Postby CoeyCoey » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:54 pm

Gelert,

Yes, we all know about your claims as a great scientist. However, I would be highly suspect of any "science' you engage in, because you are so extremely biased based on your own beliefs and experiences. You aren't objective in your views which will taint anything you study.

You keep bringing up the claims of raw foodism about "living enzymes". You are basing your whole argument that raw foodism is bad because of inaccurate or false claims made by a few. Well, that is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I never make such claim, so stop trying to use it against me and every other raw food practitioner.

Your main argument about raw food is that your feces would not flush? Seriously??? Please tell me this isn't how you conduct an experiment!

Almost every person I know who has tried a raw food diet and went overboard on the fruit, or mixed too many foods had stomach pains. Maybe if you actually read something about recommended raw food diets, you would see there is more to it that just eating any food at anytime.

You want to defer to something a little more sophisticated? You mean studies conducted by scientist who likely have no detailed knowledge of the subject they are studying? I read a LOT of studies, and most of them have such bad data sampling and analysis that they are laughable. That is when I realized personal experience is a far greater indication of success than someone with an overpriced degree.

Personally, I am doing almost everything you claim is wrong and having the most success I have ever had in my entire life. I got so sick of listening to your indoctrinated opinion on exercise and diet that I stopped posting here. You just repeat the same myths over and over again and don't have any real world experience of your own. Oh that's right. You do have experience in floating feces.
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Re: Raw food

Postby mabli » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:11 pm

CoeyCoey chill out, dont let strangers with differing opinions engage your emotions like this... it really isnt a good advert for raw food making you calmer
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Re: Raw food

Postby Gelert » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:36 pm

[quote]Yes, we all know about your claims as a great scientist. However, I would be highly suspect of any "science' you engage in, because you are so extremely biased based on your own beliefs and experiences. You aren't objective in your views which will taint anything you study.


Ouch, I haven't been hurt so deep inside since the last five-minute internet hardman tried to touch my soul with some ad hominem waffle to cover up their own deficiencies of argument. That really cut me deep. Congratulations, big boy, I'm really feeling the love.

Meanwhile on planet earth:

[quote="CoeyCoey"]Your main argument about raw food is that your feces would not flush? Seriously??? Please tell me this isn't how you conduct an experiment!


No - it most defnitely isn't. But it's how you'd like me to conduct the "experiment" though to judge whether raw foods are the way forward or not:

[quote]Some of you science worshipers need to stop reading biased studies and try experimenting for yourself.


Well, whoopdedoo. One of us did.

Now that the "personal experience" is not so glowing on the whole you try to invalidate it. Own goal?

As I said in the post, and the one just before now, hooray if your personal experience is positive. I don't deny yours being positive for one minute. In fact I positively welcome the fact that it's so outrageously positive it makes you want to launch passive-aggressive attacks on all others whose experiences don't fit your exact preconceptions, and censor the expression of those who you deem inferior. Your gaslighting makes me happy. So happy it practically gives me wood.

Elements of my experience were positive and I said as much. But on the balance I decided that spending 45 minutes at a time on bowel admin was not how I wished to live my life.

This broad canon of experience is why I don't make the argument from anecdote as a rule, unlike yourself. Pennies are dropping here. CoeyCoey, did you happen to post on here before as ducati? Sometimes the posting mode rings some bells about the person behind the keyboard. If so, perhaps you will remember the signature et si omnes ego non? Even if all others will, I won't? Even if not, maybe there's a lesson there on the diversity of experience, opinion and judgement. And ultimately its utility in making objective decisions. Newsflash for you: everyone is biased. Even you. This is why I replicate and randomise, and use statistics to support the conclusions I present to anonymous peer review. Whereas your argument stems from n=me.

In fact, do you have any substantial argument for raw foodism, other than your claims it makes you, yourself feel good? Anything that we can't discount that you're getting high off your own placebo effect?

I'm afraid your guess about the fruits is off because I'm well aware that the high levels of sugar in fruit can cause such issues. This was five years ago, so I couldn't give you a bite-by-bite account of what I ate, but I've never been a mad-about-fruit person so it wasn't a problem to be cool about them. I kinda wish I'd taken a photo of the turds in question. I do know a little about shit, but to be honest, and I hadn't had such weird shit since my ninth birthday and I ate far too much cake with green icing. This was more like cat diarrhoea.

Re. the "enzymes" stuff. You may not make that claim, but a number of people do and it is regularly cited as a key argument for raw foodism in the literature I've read, the people I've met and listened to on the topic. It is the one thing that keeps cropping up, so in the absence of a "ten commandments of raw foodism" it's a reasonable starting point. I don't for one minute consider all raw foodists subscribe to the belief, but it does seem fairly central to the arguments made. I tend to pick on it because it is so ridiculously falsifiable that it ought to get through to anyone and everyone that it's not just my shit that smells of BS on this topic.
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Re: Raw food

Postby ninearms » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:49 pm

[quote="Maddy"]If it works and makes you feel good then great - if it doesn't then find something that does


Like cooking? I love cooking. It would be nice if people just let me get on with it.
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Re: Raw food

Postby beforewisdom » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:58 pm

[quote="Maddy"]LOL do these threads normally turn into bitch fights?


I've thought about this comment. I agree with you that an element of hostility does seem to enter into it at some point. I may be wrong, but in my opinion the hostility usually originates with the raw foodist involved. S/he seems to have a problem with other people disagreeing with them about their dietary beliefs. To be fair, whether it is right or not, most people respond defensibly when others point out what they think they know is really misinformation.

I didn't feel like any hostility was coming from you. My perception was that you were making strong claims and then when you were questioned you went back on those claims, denying you made them.

No disrespect.
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Re: Raw food

Postby beforewisdom » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:33 pm

[quote="CoeyCoey"]
Your main argument about raw food is that your feces would not flush?


No it wasn't his main argument. it was a reply to your criticism that those who criticize raw foodism never tried it themselves.



[quote]
You want to defer to something a little more sophisticated? You mean studies conducted by scientist who likely have no detailed knowledge of the subject they are studying? I read a LOT of studies, and most of them have such bad data sampling and analysis that they are laughable.


Are you stating that because a number of scientists do shoddy science that the findings of science in general should not be considered above people who are not doing science at all.......authors of books on raw foodism?


[quote]
That is when I realized personal experience is a far greater indication of success than someone with an overpriced degree.


In the past, in threads like this, at this point I would jump into unsolicited lecture why anecdotal accounts are not a reliable means of gaining knowledge. It just occurred to me that a person claiming to have enough experience with practicing science in order to dismiss the scientific method has already had that point presented to them in their career and did not see the value. No disrespect to you, but writing statements that seem to be unaware of the value of such a rule of thumb would tend to make others have questions about your claimed expertise. No personnel offense. I'm not a scientist nor do I work in the natural sciences as you do.
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Re: Raw food

Postby thestoatyone » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:21 pm

[quote="CoeyCoey"][quote="Big Good Wolf"]
The constant association with raw food and other fads isn't helping.


How can you make a statement like this? I am sorry, but it is just plain hilarious. Humans ate raw food before they ate cooked processed crap. It is not a fad, it is the natural way to eat. What is not a fad to you? Eating tofu and potato chips?


Humans also roamed around naked on the African savannah before we developed a taste for clothing and a wider range of living environments. If you want to be true to your ancestors, a happy future of sunburn, exposure and a slow death by dehydration beckons. I on the other hand,, am off for a pie, a pint and something more productive to do with my time than eating my body weight in fruit...
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Re: Raw food

Postby VeganGraham » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:50 am

[quote]...Vegans are still considered oddball...

And who's fault do you think that is ?
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Re: Raw food

Postby Clem Snide » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:33 am

I just ate a cooked breakfast and I'm feeling exceedingly calm.
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Re: Raw food

Postby baldy » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:11 am

[quote="thestoatyone"]
Humans also roamed around naked on the African savannah before we developed a taste for clothing and a wider range of living environments....

Personally I was a lot happier roaming around the beaches of Africa semi naked.
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Re: Raw food

Postby stateofflux » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:13 am

[quote="baldy"][quote="thestoatyone"]
Humans also roamed around naked on the African savannah before we developed a taste for clothing and a wider range of living environments....

Personally I was a lot happier roaming around the beaches of Africa semi naked.


Indeed, preferably with a juicy, cooked Fry's burger in one hand.
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Re: Raw food

Postby Gelert » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:36 am

[quote=".flux"][quote="baldy"][quote="thestoatyone"]
Humans also roamed around naked on the African savannah before we developed a taste for clothing and a wider range of living environments....

Personally I was a lot happier roaming around the beaches of Africa semi naked.


Indeed, preferably with a juicy, cooked Fry's burger in one hand.



I'm so glad you said burger and not one of Fry's other products there.
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Re: Raw food

Postby Maddy » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:12 pm

Beforewisdom - the only claims I made was that raw food made me feel good and that most science is biased in some way - yet again you are reading something that isn't there.

Veganism isn't considered oddball because of the association with raw food it is not a mainstream way of life in the west and that is why it is considered oddball, to blame raw food for suddenly being responsible for the oddball and hippy image of veganism is a ridiculus

Gelert we agree on the what works for you works for you and if something doesn't it doesn't (that point was made by me several posts ago but like beforewisdom you seem to ignore the bits that don't fit with your perception of a looney raw foody) so no point bringing that up again really is there - the point about placebo effect may be correct in some cases but I suspect not in the majority - People are going to get defensive if someone who really didn't spend that long doing something (whatever the reasons) dismisses their experiences as placebo - that is an unfair comment

I have raw food books I don't read the science bit I find the enzymes bit slightly shaky I got into it because it seems to me that the less processing a food has the better it is and cooking is a form of processing - I enjoy the food and the way it makes me feel

So once again

Live and let live

People on both sides of this particular fence are clearly not going to agree so whats the point in all of us churning out the same crap over and over again. I certainly won't be bothering again. It is all down to personal experience and whats suits you
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