Animal Protein Bad for Bones

[Konstantin]

Animal Protein Bad for Bones
Animal protein is associated with decreased bone health, according to a study in this month's British Journal of Nutrition. In Beijing, China, 757 girls with an average age of 10 years were randomly assigned to a group consuming cow's milk fortified with calcium, one consuming cow’s milk fortified with calcium and vitamin D, or a third group that served as controls and made no changes. Bone mass was measured at the beginning of the study and at 12, 24, 48, and 60 months. While calcium intake was positively associated with bone health, animal protein, especially from meat and eggs, was negatively associated with bone mineral density and content.
Zhang Q, Ma G, Greenfield H, et al. The association between dietary protein intake and bone mass accretion in pubertal girls with low calcium intakes. Br J Nutr. 2010;103:714-723.

[morg]

another calcium and veganism article

http://www.spineuniverse.com/conditions ... one-health

[cafenervosa]

I love reading stuff like that, great link. I love how the spineuniverse link refers to vegans as having a hard time getting enough nutrition because they only eat a plant based diet. That cracks me up to think that the "average" omnivore actually believes that eating a plant based diet is somehow devoid of high nutrition! Yea all the aweful vitamins and minerals, antioxidants and aminos we keep ingesting from all that produce and whole grains & leguems is soooo bad for us!!!

[beforewisdom]

I've been reading things like that since I got in Dr. McDougall's books in the 1990s.

Yet, I always hear anecdotal accounts of vegan with osteoporosis. Isolated stories mean nothing and many vegans I know hardly eat any vegetables, let the green leafy ones that count.

I'm not an expert. I have no idea if avoiding animal protein is enough to reduce bone loss.

I would love to read the results of some future study where this is tracked.

Calcium is the last "scare nutrient" left as far as vegan diets go. It is possible to get everything else in the recommended quantities.

If you don't use supplements, it is next to impossible or very uncomfortable to get a gram of calcium a day from leafy greens.

[morg]

http://www.vegsource.com/articles/calcium_update.htm

[morg]

http://www.vegsource.com/articles/calcium_update.htm

[ObiWanKenobi]

Another related article:

Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-vegetarians
A study comparing the bone health of 105 post-menopausal vegan Buddhist nuns and 105 non-vegetarian women, matched in every other physical respect, has produced a surprising result. Their bone density was identical. ...
Source: insciences.org

[beforewisdom]

Morg, no offense but I don't feel reassured by Jeff Nelson of vegsource

Obiwan, it was found that Asian women have slightly different shaped hip bones than caucasian women. That different shape protects them a little bit more from hip fractures. That could be an alternative reason why they don't break their hips more often.

Hip fracture rate isn't osteoporosis/bone loss. It is just a commonly used potential marker.

Thanks anyway.

[divergirl]

Hello

I have read a lot of the studies on milk consuming groups vs. non milk consuming groups in relation to bone density. I am still not convinced either way - I do believe that the diary industry has enough money and "power" to sway the general public that they MUST drink milk. Sad.

I have osteo and I had a relatively normal diet (including calcium rich foods) whilst growing up - but was vegetarian, I didn't consume animal meat only diary. I have seen a specialist about it. I am only 34 and from my studies I believe it's more of a genetic trait than anything. My mum has it and my great grandmother had it - we all have the same body build. Whereas the females in the family - sis and maternal grandmother - who have a solid build did not and do not have it.

From what I've researched one of the most important factors is weight bearing exercise whilst growing up while your bones are developing. Of course this is an on-going good thing to do.

I grilled my specialist about taking calcium supplements cos I was worried about that. He assured me (an expert in his field) the only times I would have to worry about excess calcium loss would be whilst preggers (not likely these days.....) whilst breastfeeding (again not anticipated to be an issue for me if no bambinos ) and then during menopause - these are the times that calcium is sucked out of your body. He thought a healthy diet with leafy greens and the weight bearing exercises were best.

As a side note - the best weight bearing exercise he recommended was tennis. Ha - I cannot play tennis well at all!!!!! This is due to the running from side to side and when you 'lunge & stop' on one foot to whack the ball - that is your complete weight bearing on that foot. The other excellent exercises are star jumps (or jumping jacks) & squat jumps. These all make you bear your weight. It's important to realise the difference between weight lifting (as in using external weights) & exercise where you bear your on weight.

Slightly off topic but since I've got osteo - thought I'd chime in.

[Asleep on a sunbeam]

Hello

I have read a lot of the studies on milk consuming groups vs. non milk consuming groups in relation to bone density. I am still not convinced either way - I do believe that the diary industry has enough money and "power" to sway the general public that they MUST drink milk. Sad.

I have osteo and I had a relatively normal diet (including calcium rich foods) whilst growing up - but was vegetarian, I didn't consume animal meat only diary. I have seen a specialist about it. I am only 34 and from my studies I believe it's more of a genetic trait than anything. My mum has it and my great grandmother had it - we all have the same body build. Whereas the females in the family - sis and maternal grandmother - who have a solid build did not and do not have it.

From what I've researched one of the most important factors is weight bearing exercise whilst growing up while your bones are developing. Of course this is an on-going good thing to do.

I grilled my specialist about taking calcium supplements cos I was worried about that. He assured me (an expert in his field) the only times I would have to worry about excess calcium loss would be whilst preggers (not likely these days.....) whilst breastfeeding (again not anticipated to be an issue for me if no bambinos ) and then during menopause - these are the times that calcium is sucked out of your body. He thought a healthy diet with leafy greens and the weight bearing exercises were best.

As a side note - the best weight bearing exercise he recommended was tennis. Ha - I cannot play tennis well at all!!!!! This is due to the running from side to side and when you 'lunge & stop' on one foot to whack the ball - that is your complete weight bearing on that foot. The other excellent exercises are star jumps (or jumping jacks) & squat jumps. These all make you bear your weight. It's important to realise the difference between weight lifting (as in using external weights) & exercise where you bear your on weight.

Slightly off topic but since I've got osteo - thought I'd chime in.

Did he mention anything on vitamin D?

Would you say your diets changed much since having osteo (I hope you don't mind me asking, how long have you had it?)
And lastly, does table tennis count?

[divergirl]

Hi Asleep on a Sunbeam - love that name!

Yep we discussed Vitamin D and he said if I were to choose to take Calcium supplements then I should combine with Vitamin D for absorption. Interesting that there are several vitamins & minerals that do well in the presence of others.

You can picture what our cave-like existent lives would have been like - foraging in the open air and sunshine (vitamin D) & eating the right kinds of foods (mostly plant based - OMG imagine having to chase large animals for food - baaah all too hard & gruesome! ) Anyway you can picture the "natural life" and how all these things would have worked hand in hand, not to mention the volume of physical activity!

Anyways, I have been diagnosed since I was 27, I am now 34. When I went for my bone scan they treated me like crap - you're not old enough, you haven't had a fracture, you don't have kidney failure blah-de-blah-blah. All the Q's were to ascertain if the govt would pay for the test which is aimed at people over 65. I was like excuse me I have been referred by my GP and I will pay the $100 for the bloody test. I again encountered the same opposition by the tech doing the scan - you're too young, we don't scan people under 30 blah blah. Then after the 20 min scan she came back in the room with the results and was all sheepish & like 'oh good thing you came you do have evidence of it'!

When first scanned I had osteopenia - the precursor to osteoporosis. This is all based on levels of bone scans - mine was done on hip and ankle. After 2 years I went back for a recheck & altho I had been good diet-wise & exercise-wise I tipped over the line for osteoporosis that time rather than osteopenia. I have not been back for another scan and reckon it would still be bad. I am very mindful of not breaking any bones cos I could have problems there....

Dietwise the biggest thing would be the reduction in animal products as I used to eat heaps of diary. I try to be mindful of things that would help with intake of natural calcium - I do not do supplements. My mum once had calcium supplements (she has it also) and I just happened to read the label and the calcium source was ground up oyster shells - gross!

One tip on calcium supplements. Many can be expensive so to make sure you're getting the best you should put one tablet in a glass on regular white vinegar (similar acidity to stomach) - leave for 20 mins, if the tablet is fully/mostly dissolved you have a good supplement if not find another cos the calcium will not be absorbed well by the body. I was skeptical of this test but we did it on a tablet my mum had and it didn't dissolve for over an hour - I was amazed at the diff between that and another one we tried.

Nope, sorry I don't believe table tennis counts. You've gotta think jolting (gentle)/weight bearing exercise on your legs/torso.

[Asleep on a sunbeam]

Hi Asleep on a Sunbeam - love that name!

Yep we discussed Vitamin D and he said if I were to choose to take Calcium supplements then I should combine with Vitamin D for absorption. Interesting that there are several vitamins & minerals that do well in the presence of others.

You can picture what our cave-like existent lives would have been like - foraging in the open air and sunshine (vitamin D) & eating the right kinds of foods (mostly plant based - OMG imagine having to chase large animals for food - baaah all too hard & gruesome! ) Anyway you can picture the "natural life" and how all these things would have worked hand in hand, not to mention the volume of physical activity!

Anyways, I have been diagnosed since I was 27, I am now 34. When I went for my bone scan they treated me like crap - you're not old enough, you haven't had a fracture, you don't have kidney failure blah-de-blah-blah. All the Q's were to ascertain if the govt would pay for the test which is aimed at people over 65. I was like excuse me I have been referred by my GP and I will pay the $100 for the bloody test. I again encountered the same opposition by the tech doing the scan - you're too young, we don't scan people under 30 blah blah. Then after the 20 min scan she came back in the room with the results and was all sheepish & like 'oh good thing you came you do have evidence of it'!

When first scanned I had osteopenia - the precursor to osteoporosis. This is all based on levels of bone scans - mine was done on hip and ankle. After 2 years I went back for a recheck & altho I had been good diet-wise & exercise-wise I tipped over the line for osteoporosis that time rather than osteopenia. I have not been back for another scan and reckon it would still be bad. I am very mindful of not breaking any bones cos I could have problems there....

Dietwise the biggest thing would be the reduction in animal products as I used to eat heaps of diary. I try to be mindful of things that would help with intake of natural calcium - I do not do supplements. My mum once had calcium supplements (she has it also) and I just happened to read the label and the calcium source was ground up oyster shells - gross!

One tip on calcium supplements. Many can be expensive so to make sure you're getting the best you should put one tablet in a glass on regular white vinegar (similar acidity to stomach) - leave for 20 mins, if the tablet is fully/mostly dissolved you have a good supplement if not find another cos the calcium will not be absorbed well by the body. I was skeptical of this test but we did it on a tablet my mum had and it didn't dissolve for over an hour - I was amazed at the diff between that and another one we tried.

Nope, sorry I don't believe table tennis counts. You've gotta think jolting (gentle)/weight bearing exercise on your legs/torso.

My username is the name of a belle and Sebastian song.

I really do need to get into the sun a bit more. I take veg 1 but I don't often venture out in just my t-shirt torso wise.

Sounds like you've had a rough time of it in the hospitals. Which country were you in at that time?

Who recommended that diet change? Was it from your own research or doctor recommended?

And I'm always jolting in table tennis (never stay on the spot) so that's great news:P.

[beforewisdom]

Dietwise the biggest thing would be the reduction in animal products as I used to eat heaps of diary.

I've been a vegan since the 90s. I've read this idea in books by doctors and scientists promoting plant based diets. I haven't heard of it outside of their circles all that much. What does your doctor say about it?

I try to be mindful of things that would help with intake of natural calcium - I do not do supplements. My mum once had calcium supplements (she has it also) and I just happened to read the label and the calcium source was ground up oyster shells - gross!

One tip on calcium supplements. Many can be expensive so to make sure you're getting the best you should put one tablet in a glass on regular white vinegar (similar acidity to stomach) - leave for 20 mins, if the tablet is fully/mostly dissolved you have a good supplement if not find another cos the calcium will not be absorbed well by the body. I was skeptical of this test but we did it on a tablet my mum had and it didn't dissolve for over an hour - I was amazed at the diff between that and another one we tried.

Very interesting test.

I guess mine passes as I often put mine in mouth out of the medicine cabinet in my bathroom and by the time I get to my kitchen it has started dissolving leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I will have to try the vinegar test though.

I've read that the most absorbable calcium supplements are
- are calcium citrate
- come with with a 1 / 1/2 mix with magnesium
- come with some vitamin D

Your thoughts?

Luckily there is such a vegan mix that I send away for:

http://www.vegangoods.com/products/Calc ... ttle-.html

[Asleep on a sunbeam]

Dietwise the biggest thing would be the reduction in animal products as I used to eat heaps of diary.

I've been a vegan since the 90s. I've read this idea in books by doctors and scientists promoting plant based diets. I haven't heard of it outside of their circles all that much. What does your doctor say about it?

I try to be mindful of things that would help with intake of natural calcium - I do not do supplements. My mum once had calcium supplements (she has it also) and I just happened to read the label and the calcium source was ground up oyster shells - gross!

One tip on calcium supplements. Many can be expensive so to make sure you're getting the best you should put one tablet in a glass on regular white vinegar (similar acidity to stomach) - leave for 20 mins, if the tablet is fully/mostly dissolved you have a good supplement if not find another cos the calcium will not be absorbed well by the body. I was skeptical of this test but we did it on a tablet my mum had and it didn't dissolve for over an hour - I was amazed at the diff between that and another one we tried.

Very interesting test.

I guess mine passes as I often put mine in mouth out of the medicine cabinet in my bathroom and by the time I get to my kitchen it has started dissolving leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I will have to try the vinegar test though.

I've read that the most absorbable calcium supplements are
- are calcium citrate
- come with with a 1 / 1/2 mix with magnesium
- come with some vitamin D

Your thoughts?

Luckily there is such a vegan mix that I send away for:

http://www.vegangoods.com/products/Calc ... ttle-.html

I'm posting a new thread with this as the opening post in the supplement forums.

[beforewisdom]

Calcium citrate is supposed to be the form of calcium most easily absorbed. The idea is to take it with a 2:1 mix with magnesium and some vitamin D.

I'm surprised this didn't occur to me before.

Type "Caclium Citrate Powder" into google and you will get listing for many brands of calcium citrate powder.

Unlike a tablet, you will not need to worry if it will dissolve.