B12 Breaking News: Old fermentation method rediscovered

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Postby Ava Odoéména » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:15 pm

[Gelert]

> Tell you what might be even more curious, is that the two species you
> mention there are Propionibacterium. Given the wider distribution of B12
> production in bacteria

Yes, Prof. Bärwald mentioned those, he advised against Clostridien, as well as Pseudomonas dentrificans or some molds for hygienic reasons in food production:-)

> Most microbiologists are only really familiar with Propionibacterium as
> one of its species, P. acnes is partly responsible for acne. It's a
> natural inhabitant of humans, particularly skin.

Ah, interesting.

> Which leads me to wonder whether it produces B12 too. It's a question I
> might be able to partly answer myself, as its genome sequence is available
> to look up its metabolic pathways.

Well don't forget though, that if it is capable of B12 production at all, its "motivation" to do so may depend on certain environmental factors as well. The required presence of cobalt comes to mind, for example.

> Ava, our fount of all things B12, can you tell us if human sweat and
> zitjuice contains B12

Oh, my knowledge has limits you know:-)

> I'll leave that mental image there and quit being facetious.

Would popping zits with your teeth count as foreplay? I've never tasted pus, and I'm not very inclined to try, though licking off sweat from someone I find very sympathetic is something which could ignite the otherwise dull social activity in animal rights gatherings.

> But propionibacteria can also live in the mouth. They're aerotolerant
> anaerobes. I wonder whether they could even be very happy sublingually?

> Maybe you could shortcut dosing food with B12 producing bacteria
> and administer the organisms as
> probiotics, to live happily on a major site of B12 absorption.

Even if you could manage to convince your small intestine, which is striving towards sterility, to host bacteria permanently, the quantity of B12 they produce would be crucial. If this is possible I can't answer you.

> (why is that so much better than fortifying food?)

Well it's not better at all in a nutritional sense, I agree. It's to crack the blockades of the naturalists. There are hordes of nonvegan vegetarians whose only reason to keep back is this issue. The rhetorical power this lends to the vegan stance is immense.
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Postby Ava Odoéména » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:34 pm

A little OT, and just to express my gratitude towards Prof. Bärwald for his patience with me, there is one subject which is so dear to him so that he's written a book about it. It's the amazing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_artichoke

or Topinambur as it is called in German and perhaps in other languages as well. It has a root which is often compared to potatoes and these have interesting properties. It's supposedly very nutritious and can be used as a diet food since the inulin it contains is not digested. I've not had the chance to taste it, my local groceryman has never heard of it, but he promised to keep an eye out in the wholesale market.
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Postby Gelert » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:37 pm

Yep, I agree with your last point there.

As for the site of B12 absorption I meant mouth/sublingual. My use of "major" to describe it was a bit confusing maybe.

They set out to sequence the oral metagenome (i.e all the DNA of all the microbes in the human mouth) about four or five years ago, I haven't come across the papers on what/who they found but I knew a few of the people involved in the early stages and they decided there were on average about 800 species in there, often showing very specific preferences for habitat and so forth, so maybe it is a long shot to get this kind of thing to work. Conversely, there could be a prodigious B12 producer in the mouth already that doesn't get close enough or constant enough. Treponema denticola, a relative of the syphilis agent, which causes periodontal disease has at least two of the right genes.

P. acnes does have the right pathways for making B12 according to KEGG. This is largely predicted from its genome sequence rather than experimentally though:

Image

As you say, it's not just whether these things have the genes but whether they're expressed or not and so forth. But there's ways and means around that, given patience.
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Postby puppydog » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:02 pm

pretty sure that box 2.7.8.26 should be cbOy.
you might want to let them know there's a type-o
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Postby The Duke » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:45 pm

[quote="omar tan"]pretty sure that box 2.7.8.26 should be cbOy.
you might want to let them know there's a type-o


You idiot Omar, anyone can see it should be cbOv not cbOy as you see.
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Postby JP » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:49 pm

i didnt even get there, keep choosing the wrong junction.
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Postby emm7 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:51 pm

yep the bacteria are trying to tell you guys to cbOv their b12 it's theirs and they're not sharing it even if you ask nicely :lol:
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Postby Gelert » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:52 pm

You're both idiots. Both your posts whiff of fail. Or as Ava would say: WRONG!!!

It's CobS.

http://www.genome.ad.jp/dbget-bin/www_b ... e+2.7.8.26

2.7.8.26 is the Enzyme Commision's shorthand for that enzyme, a bit like a Dewey Decimal thingy in the library.

It's very clunky, but I thought I'd best include the pathway in case Ava Odoéména thinks it's worth mentioning to her mate the Prof.
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Postby The Duke » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:56 pm

Might I venture ... Mornington Cresent?
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Postby Gelert » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:08 pm

[quote="The Duke"]Might I venture ... Mornington Cresent?


Could be, under the Recommendations of the nomenclature committee of the International Union of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology on the nomenclature and classification of enzymes by the reactions which they catalyse, could be.
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Postby emm7 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:11 pm

the tube stop you're thinking of is BLACKFRIARS.
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Postby littlepurplegoth » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:17 pm

[quote="Ava Odoéména"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_artichoke

or Topinambur as it is called in German and perhaps in other languages as well. It has a root which is often compared to potatoes and these have interesting properties. It's supposedly very nutritious and can be used as a diet food since the inulin it contains is not digested. I've not had the chance to taste it, my local groceryman has never heard of it, but he promised to keep an eye out in the wholesale market.


You can buy tubers or seeds to grow them... just don't let them loose in the garden or you'll be finding them for *years*. Hmmm UK to Germany doesn't take that long in the post - could send some over if you like??

Although there are other, um, side effects of eating them that may not endear you to your friends/officecohort/housemates... etc...

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Postby Ava Odoéména » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:22 am

[quote="littlepurplegoth"]

You can buy tubers or seeds to grow them... just don't let them loose in the garden or you'll be finding them for *years*. Hmmm UK to Germany doesn't take that long in the post - could send some over if you like??

Although there are other, um, side effects of eating them that may not endear you to your friends/officecohort/housemates... etc...

LPG


It's an interesting offer, is there anything I could send you in reverse from Germany you desire? BTW I don't have a garden of my own, but I'm a "guerrilla gardener", I plant eadible crops like watercress in urban spaces. It's a political act. I hate these toxic shrubs they have planted everywhere, not even the birds can eat their berries. And they're so ugly. Last year I planted little apple trees everywhere from the saved seeds of apples I ate. I don't know if they survived, I don't check up on them. In any case, topinambur is a perfect crop for UGG (urban guerrilla gardending). Pretty and harvestable.

About the flatulence, does it reoccur? I remember when I became vegan legumes did have the alleged effect. But it vanished after 3 months or so. Since then I digest beans like strawberries. Besides, a fart attack is great fun.
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Postby Dave Noisy » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:03 pm

Jerusalem artichokes are yummy.

Would this bacteria be able do do their magic in a soy yogurt? =)
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Postby Ava Odoéména » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:55 am

[quote="Dave Noisy"]Jerusalem artichokes are yummy.

Would this bacteria be able do do their magic in a soy yogurt? =)


Yes indeed. Actually, soy yogurt would be perfect, because it starts out with a liquid phase. Professor Bärwald tried this with soy milk and also vegetable juices. Probionibacteria play an important role in the production of (unvegan) cheese. What is little known, is that under particular conditions, they can produce bioactive B12.

What this means is that if you make soy yogurt at home (rather simple), this would most likely render large amounts of vitamin K2 which is also important, but not any bioactive B12. Only with the right bacteria and the right conditions would the yield of bioactive B12 be relevant.

Now, have I mentioned yet, that the conditions play an important role? Just as the importance of the presence of the right bacteria?
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