gender disadvantages to soya milk??

Any queries about vegan diet, nutrition, dieting, bulking and healthy eating in general. Diets and food from vegan perspective.

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Postby Mary » Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:47 am

I think that taken as whole foods it should be okay though... That seems to be the impression I get from what I have read. A balanced diet balances itself out.
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Postby Heyutang » Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:40 am

I had the same idea Mary, that is why I started that other thread (to isolate or not?) because some of the benefits of soy may be reduced when isolated and when taken in large doses. Some others have suggested to take pea protein and mix it with soy protein, to still get that *magical* bbing protein boost.
Has anyone read the book by Will Brinks, Muscle Buidling Nutrition, by the way? He, as a non vegetarian, still advocates use of soy protein, because of the benefits of the phyto-estrogens. He suggests to mix it with whey protein, off limits for us but ok when mixed with pea protein.
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Postby Cuguacuarana » Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:13 am

What kinds of doses? Are you suggesting we limit our fruit and vegetable intake?
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Postby Heyutang » Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:23 am

? Limit fruit and vegetable intake? The doses I was talking about were the large isolated protein doses that bbers take. Some consider them necessary, others don't, and advocate the use of non-isolated proteins like tofu and tempeh etc. Don't know where you're coming from, Cuguacarana, what did you mean?
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"soy bean madness" clinical problem in vegans

Postby loreinski » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:12 am

ah eat drink all the soy you can find, isolate or not. who cares. I drink litres of the stuff. I eat tons of the tofu, I love it.

evidence just recently, that early childhood diabetes resulted from cow infant substituted milk, over natural human breast milk. Due to the fat that estrogen is needed in human growth. And cows milk is low estrogen.

don't be fooled by the nutrition over hype of estrogen blockers, or too much estrogen in a athletes (male) diet. it sounds like a pile of rubbish.

now I am going to have a big tub of silken tofu with mangos. Yo!
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Re: "soy bean madness" clinical problem in vegans

Postby JP » Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:51 am

[quote="loreinski"]And cows milk is low estrogen.


would like to see more info about that one because all articles i've read on places like pubmed so far say exactly the opposite, that bovine milk is high in estrogen.
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Postby Mary » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:30 am

Cow's milk is high in estrogen, from what I have read, but it is bovine estrogen, not chemically identical to the human hormone. Therefore although it can trigger hormonal changes in the human body (we are mammals after all, like cows, and susceptable to these hormones) the protective effect of mothers estrogen in human milk is lost when cow's milk is given instead.

It is a very complicated field, and the claims, counter claims etc, leave a lot of people with a feeling of hopelessness, which makes it harder for them to make positive change in their own lives. The scientific press doesn't exactly help matters, as they can scarcely be said to be unbiassed.
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Postby Cuguacuarana » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:26 am

[quote="Heyutang"]? Limit fruit and vegetable intake? The doses I was talking about were the large isolated protein doses that bbers take. Some consider them necessary, others don't, and advocate the use of non-isolated proteins like tofu and tempeh etc. Don't know where you're coming from, Cuguacarana, what did you mean?


I must have been confused. I thought you were saying that phytoestrogens should be limited to small doses. I was asking what kinds of doses because they are in fruits and vegetables too. I would think that depending on the doses, limiting phytoestrogens would mean limiting fruits and vegetables. But it sounds like you are saying that they are in higher doses in protein isolates and that those are all that should be limited. I didn't realise there was that big of a difference. Or am I still confused? I am curious how much tofu a person would have to eat to consume the same ammount of phytoestrogens in a serving of soy protein isolate.
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Postby Heyutang » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:55 am

Cc, sorry if I confused you. English is not my first language, but I'm doing my best :) ! So I really was talking about the high amounts of isolated protein some people take, and if that is necessary, and safe to do. Have any thoughts on that btw? I noticed you study biology, right? I did one year of that, but then changed to physio because my practicums were so bad... It seems I'm too impatient to cut up small sticks and stuff and then look at them through a microscope....However I love acupuncture now!
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Postby JP » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:02 am

[quote="Cuguacuarana"]But it sounds like you are saying that they are in higher doses in protein isolates and that those are all that should be limited. I didn't realise there was that big of a difference. Or am I still confused? I am curious how much tofu a person would have to eat to consume the same ammount of phytoestrogens in a serving of soy protein isolate.


i thought it was other way around, that protein isolates contain less phytoestrogens than tofu and whole soy products. I'll look into it because i seem to remember having a reference somewhere.
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Postby loreinski » Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:52 am

[quote="Mary"]Cow's milk is high in estrogen, from what I have read, but it is bovine estrogen, not chemically identical to the human hormone. Therefore although it can trigger hormonal changes in the human body (we are mammals after all, like cows, and susceptable to these hormones) the protective effect of mothers estrogen in human milk is lost when cow's milk is given instead.

It is a very complicated field, and the claims, counter claims etc, leave a lot of people with a feeling of hopelessness, which makes it harder for them to make positive change in their own lives. The scientific press doesn't exactly help matters, as they can scarcely be said to be unbiassed.


I have heard that also, that cows milk lowers human estrogen in children - that can possible lead to childhood diabetes. Which is what I meant to say, rather than cows milk is low in estrogen.

I think the estrogen issue with body building is way over rated. It's the whey industry and diary's industry futile attack on veganism - ie be a vegan, turn into a woman. Some vegans have bought that hysteria.
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Postby Mary » Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:34 am

They know where to kick a macho male though. Let's face it, it is a common insecurity. And then I keep getting told I will turn into a man if I weight train! The sexes can't hate each other that much can they?
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Postby loreinski » Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:55 am

[quote="Mary"]They know where to kick a macho male though. Let's face it, it is a common insecurity. And then I keep getting told I will turn into a man if I weight train! The sexes can't hate each other that much can they?


I hope not, but social isolation, and separation of the sexes is good for business.

There is a lot of misconceptions out there at the moment.
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