gender disadvantages to soya milk??

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gender disadvantages to soya milk??

Postby rubysoho » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:49 am

I have a friend who is currently travelling in Australia and where he is currently staying there is a vegan nutritionist in residence who has been advising him on his diet. Whilst discussing things the nutritionist advised my friend to avoid Soya milk in favour of Oat Milk as he believes that Soya milk can have a detrimental effect on thyroid, hormone and digestive balance and that it is preferable for men to consume Oat milk and women to consume Rice milk as these are more in 'tune' with each genders hormone balance and function.

I was wondering if anyone on here had heard of this view before and if they had any more information on the reasoning behind it and if it actually carries some merit.

Thanks!
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Postby billyoffspring » Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:02 pm

I have never heard that. I have heard (from many sources) that soy milk is good for you, men and women, but you should limit your daily intake. I shoot for 50g at most, usually a lot less.
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Postby JP » Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:57 pm

There was a thread about this a while back:

http://www.veganfitness.net/viewtopic.php?t=576

That essentially covers the claims.

There are a lot of nutrition gurus out there making off the wall claims and soy is getting it's fair share.

The worrying thing is that claims like that can reveal their level of knowledge and their readiness to jump on dubious bandwagons, so my advice would be to be critical about any advice this person gives (as one should be always!).
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Postby Cuguacuarana » Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:18 am

I have read a number of sources claiming that the phytonutrients present in soy milk are bad for men because they resemble estrogen. IMO its BS. Phytoestrogens are present in high numbers in nearly all vegetables and fruits. It would be crazy to suggest that men not eat fruit and vegetables because of phytoestrogens, so why not eat soy too. It is also these same nutrients that give soy and other fruits and vegetables its anti cancer properties.

Estrogen is not a thyroid hormones. To my understanding, there is no difference in the thyroid hormones of men and women. I am really curious about this issue, I hope someone knows more.
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Postby Heyutang » Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:34 am

I remember from a long time ago when I did my thesis ('the effect of sauna on male fertility') and compiling research on the negative effects on male fertility; that estrogens were well amongst the evil-doers. Estrogens are to be found everywhere in nature, more specifically amongst pollutants. There is no way escaping them. The estrogens in soy also have an effect, but only when they reach a certain dosage. This is from a study in pubmed:
[quote]Administration of genistein reversed the stimulatory effects of a soy-free diet and significantly retarded most measures of pubertal spermatogenesis

however you better read the whole article yourself; low dosages of estrogens actually stimulated sperm production. Here is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... s=11014247
So the last word on this has not been said yet. Probably it would be safe to keep the dosage of soy products not too high. How high?
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Postby JP » Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:40 am

yes, sure estrogens are the big evil in this case, but there are estrogens and estrogens. The estrogens in soy are phyto-oestrogens, plant based, whereas in dairy (which is what soy is essentially compared against) the estrogens are of animal origin - question is, what is the difference in the strength of these different estrogens?

It has been suggested that since the estrogens in soy only mimic estrogen qualities they could serve as an anti-estrogenic agent.

[quote="Heyutang"]I remember from a long time ago when I did my thesis ('the effect of sauna on male fertility')


c'moon, spill the beans mate! I'm from finland, the land of Sauna, so i'm very interested to hear this :D
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Postby Mary » Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:08 am

The estrogens that people consume in animal products like milk are designed to have a physiological effect on mammals. So they are actually worse for you than phytoestrogens. The only way to avoid phytoestrogens is to stop eating vegetables. No apples, potatoes, mushrooms... just meat. And meat contains mammalian hormones that are several thousand times more potent than phytos.

Do not believe the hype about phyto estrogens. It is just designed to confuse you.
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Postby Heyutang » Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:39 pm

[quote]c'moon, spill the beans mate! I'm from finland, the land of Sauna, so i'm very interested to hear this


Yes I thought some would have been interested in this little matter, hence the teaser :wink:
In our limited study (small groups) in which we had a control group that took saunas twice a week for several months, and a control group which did nothing special, and in which all had to "produce" a sperm sample regularly, we found that there was a significant decrease in male fertility amongst the test group. Yep. Both sperm count and sperm motility were significantly altered.
It has to do with the heat in the sauna, of course. The reason why the testes are in their scrotum has to do with lower temperatures.
When I was living in Finland though, I still took many many saunas. The best must have been in those little saunas built next to the holiday houses around the lakes, fueled with wood. Then break the ice in the lake and go and sit in the icey water. Cool!! Man, that was great!
The negative effect was reversible, by the way (if you stop taking saunas, your sperm gets better again). Proven that is, as I am about to become a daddy for the first time, this autumn. :) Over and out from HK. :D
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Postby funfetus » Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:40 pm

I saw a piece on the Discovery Channel, maybe, or some science channel, about these guys in Europe somewhere, who did an experiment on themselves in which they soaked their scrotums in a very hot bath for 20 minutes, several times a day. The water was so hot that they had to be careful not to let it touch their legs. Scrotal skin is apparently less sensitive to temperature. After a couple weeks, they tested their semen, and found that sperm were practically nonexistent. They "field tested" their theory for a few months with their wives/girlfriends, no one turned up pregnant, and the experiment was pronounced a success. After stopping the treatments, sperm-counts returned to normal.

Maybe this should've gone in the "vegan contraception" thread.
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Postby tylerm » Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:26 pm

[quote="funfetus"]I saw a piece on the Discovery Channel, maybe, or some science channel, about these guys in Europe somewhere, who did an experiment on themselves in which they soaked their scrotums in a very hot bath for 20 minutes, several times a day. The water was so hot that they had to be careful not to let it touch their legs.

Maybe this should've gone in the "vegan contraception" thread.


I saw the same thing. I would rather use a condom. :)
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Postby Mary » Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:30 pm

Ha. Look at youse complaining. Men have it easy. "Here darling, I don't want to use a condom. It numbs sensation. Shove this bit of barbed wire up your [censored] I am told it doesn't hurt..."

Yeah, right. :evil:

(I am sure that you are lovely blokes, and nothing like my ex, so I will let you off...) I suppose cooking your own sperm to death is a bit beyond the call of duty.
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Postby JP » Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:10 pm

[quote="Mary"]No apples, potatoes, mushrooms... just meat.


I though meat contains estrogens as well? That what i read from a study when i was scanning for estrogen and bovine milk related studies at pubmed...
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Postby Cuguacuarana » Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:50 am

[quote="Mary"]Ha. Look at youse complaining. Men have it easy. "Here darling, I don't want to use a condom. It numbs sensation. Shove this bit of barbed wire up your [censored] I am told it doesn't hurt..."

Yeah, right. :evil:

(I am sure that you are lovely blokes, and nothing like my ex, so I will let you off...) I suppose cooking your own sperm to death is a bit beyond the call of duty.


I would rather cook my scrotum than have my fiance take the pill (if sperm count returns to normal). I don't think its good to take hormones unless necessary. Better than condoms though, I guess.
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Postby Mary » Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:32 am

What I was saying was that phytoestrogens in plants are chemically and physiologically different from animal estrogens. Animal estrogens are designed to act on animals. As animals we should be more concerned by them than by phytoestrogens, which can regulate a lot of problems anyway.
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Postby Heyutang » Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:40 am

for sure meat contains estrogens, especially non-organic raised animals. The stuff is everywhere. Crops are sprayed with estrogen-like agents. DDT for example was a very strong agent, now forbidden luckily (bit still in use in some parts of China and Africa, from stocks from Europe and USA after it was forbidden there :evil: )
Mary, what you say about the phyto-estrogens is true, they are good for many things like lowering blood fat levels and fighting cancer, but they may have some negtive effects when taken in larger doses. That is still somewhat uncertain.
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