to isolate or not, that's the question?

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to isolate or not, that's the question?

Postby Heyutang » Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:52 am

Hi,

I have been thinking about this for a long time now.
Most of us know that in order for the body to grow and maintain, we need to make more new cells all the time. Cells are made of many different substances. Protein, is one of them. However, it is not the only only one. Minerals, EFA's,and many other all play an important role in cell building.

I am still puzzled as to how most of the bbers resorted to taking isolated proteins, and in the amounts they take them. I know that most of them are aware of EFA's, and add them to their shakes or diet.
Especially here, amonst vegans, that make a lot of effort to get rid of processed foods, I wonder why isolated proteins (soy, rice, hemp?) still thrive.

Is it because of the supranatural phenomenom of bbing (it is a rather new sport, no?) that we have to resort to supranatural foods? But could better results be obtained with natural appearing proteins (non-processed soy been products, beans etc.)? I read that Pat Reeves does not endorse the use of isolated proteins. I haven't found any articles that compare natural vs processed proteins. Do you know of any? Or could you tell me how your experiences were, or your thoughts about this? Any links?

This one does puzzle me. Thanks for your replies.
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Postby tylerm » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:42 am

I have just started adding isolated proteins to morning smoothies the past month or two. I started using a soy protein powder, and now a veg powder that contains soy, rice and pea protein. I usually have one shake a day, sometimes another after a hard workout with some bananna and natural peanut butter.

I take it as an assurance that I am getting lots of protein. I eat lots of beans, whole grain breads and pasta, veggies, etc to get natural protein as well. I also eat some processed foods like tofu which gives me a good amount of protein. I just find it convenient to be able to get 30 or so grams of protein in a shake with isolated protein powder, soymilk and peanutbutter.
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Postby Heyutang » Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:38 am

OK I see, fair enough. But the question remains if our bodies can use and assimilate those proteins. Not enough is a problem, but so is too much. Hmm.
In Asia, there are powdered drinks made of wheat germ, black beans, etc. They are natural, quite high in protein but nowhere as near as the isolated drinks, and have more fats etc. I wonder which are better for our bodies. Go natural or processed.
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Postby JP » Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:43 am

i don't think there's a difference, sure "natural" what ever that means, is better in a sense that you get alot of other nutrients alongside, but to have a high protein intake protein isolates have their place as well.

Also, sometimes the absorption speed is important as well and fats would slow down that speed.

I've seen quite a few different protein studies in the past measuring both total amounts of protein intake and also the efficiency of different protein sources (where they get the Biological value, BV, from) and as far as i remember isolates do not fare any worse.

One thing to think about, even if there was a considerable difference in absorption rates, say 10%, the total amount of protein you can have using isolates far surpasses the negative effect.
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Postby Mary » Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:50 am

I love Mochi, which you can get over here - though I have to check they are vegan, as I don't trust the pink ones, etc. I know full of sugar, but I love black bean red bean pastes, etc.

What are these drinks called that you have in Asia? I would be interested in finding out...
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Postby Heyutang » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:05 am

[quote]i don't think there's a difference, sure "natural" what ever that means, is better in a sense that you get alot of other nutrients alongside

Yes this is what I was thinking about: digestion is quite complex and needs many other 'assistants' like enzymes and minerals that may or may not be included in one's shake, or may not be compatible with the isolated protein. That is the kind of info I am looking for.

[quote]I've seen quite a few different protein studies in the past measuring both total amounts of protein intake and also the efficiency of different protein sources (where they get the Biological value, BV, from) and as far as i remember isolates do not fare any worse.


Would you have any links to those, JP? Thanks

Mary, Mochi is great, a very nice dessert. Haven't seen it in China or HK though, it originates from Japan I think, is also used in marcobiotic kitchen.
At the moment I only have one of those drinks in our small apartment, I see it is made in Taiwan (land of delicious food!!) by Sweet Garden Biotechnology www.herbfood.com.tw. Some of them are really yummy!!
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Postby Dee » Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:20 am

As we are on the subject of isolates, why aren't yellow spilt peas and other high protein pulses isolated. l know of pea protein isolate which is green peas but that's it.


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Postby JP » Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:50 am

dee, that could be because the protein isolate is separated from the leftovers from the milk making, soy protein is made from the pulp left from soy milk production and presumably pea protein made from pea milk leftovers?

heytang, these are just studies i've happened to come across in other boards, sorry, don't have any links and would love to have the time to search through pubmed.com - i'll try later!

In all, it is true that bodybuilders generally take more protein than what they need, but as one cleverly put it, he thinks it is a cheap insurance that he is getting enough to consume a bit, perhaps 10-20% over, rather than try to monitor your body to find the exact amount.
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Postby littlelight » Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:54 pm

Hmm... Well, I'm not a BB, but most of the "natural" protein-rich foods can also be high in fat, or calories, or both, and to eat enough of them to get my recommended protein, I would be at or above my maintenance intake, which is not good for someone trying to lose weight ;)

I make 1 protein shake every morning, and the rest of my protein comes from other processed foods like lite tofu, veggie burgers, veggie dogs, etc. I guess I don't really see the problem as long as I'm getting the right amount for me?
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Proteins

Postby muscle-militia » Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:53 pm

What us BB’s look for is the best biological profile of foods - supplement or otherwise. Isolated proteins more often than not do not have such a good amino complex (muscle building blocks) and due to the process involved, they tend to absorb very fast. This is good and bad. Good as it hits the growth mechanism - bad as it doesn't last long enough to sustain anabolism up to 2 hours.

Pea protein however is very good and almost as complete as beef - you can get a solid 45g in one hit and use seeds, nuts and whole grains to slow the digestion and offer additional proteins. So I go for a Soy/Pea mix. As for EFA’s most use UDO’s from Savant (amazing stuff!!!!) and CLA - however I am yet to find a CLA that has capsules that we can take - bummer!

Thing is muscle burns fat - fat burns nothing!! A lot of muscle needs a lot of calories for growth. You burn near as many calories the day after you train as the day you train thro the repair process (BB’ers can be thermogenically 15% higher in body temp - imagine the calorific demand)

Me: 4536 calories per day (1512 cal protein & 3024 cal carb) :P
100% Natural - 100% meat free muscle!!
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Re: Proteins

Postby Strix » Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:01 pm

[quote="muscle-militia"]You burn near as many calories the day after you train as the day you train thro the repair process (BB’ers can be thermogenically 15% higher in body temp - imagine the calorific demand)

Me: 4536 calories per day (1512 cal protein & 3024 cal carb) :P


Seriously? I knew that burning calories went on for about 24 hours after a workout, but near as many calories the day after ???
Personally, I'm struggling with resting and therefore, recovering :(.

Is CLA that fat burning stuff? Is it supposed to help you cut?

Wow! That's a nice chunk of calories. How about putting up a food log so mortals like me can see what food gives you such great results. :)
If a food log is too much trouble, maybe just an idea of a typical day's worth of food for you.
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Five sovereign fingers taxed the breath,
Doubled the globe of dead and halved a country;
These five kings did a king to death."
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Re: Proteins

Postby JP » Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:07 pm

[quote="Strix"]How about putting up a food log


I don't think muscle-militia is vegan though, he is veggie i believe, so perhaps food log might not be appropriate ;) (correct me if i'm wrong though mate!)

Question though for muscle-militia, in the calories you had just protein and carbs totalling to your 4.5k, is that a typo, or is the fat in the carb total?
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Postby Strix » Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:23 pm

:(
"The hand that signed the paper felled a city;
Five sovereign fingers taxed the breath,
Doubled the globe of dead and halved a country;
These five kings did a king to death."
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Postby Heyutang » Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:03 am

Muscle Militia, I agree with you, Udoç choice ultimate oil blend is the best out there. I take the oil, but the capsules are vegan if somebody doesn't like the taste of the oil. More expensive though. http://www.udoerasmus.com/productmain.htm The guy wrote a bestseller about EFA's (Fats that heal, fats that kill). Good stuff, and I like the taste! Has been tested on athletes, and they recovered faster.
What brands would you recommend for the proteins, Muscle Militia? Where do you get them?
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Postby JP » Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:23 am

is Udos oil the best for vegans though considering we usually have a high amount of omega 6 in our diet anyway and the balance between 3 and 6 intake is not ideal? Wouldn't it be better to just take flax seed oil?
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