Convincing people that plant protein is good as animal prot?

Any queries about vegan diet, nutrition, dieting, bulking and healthy eating in general. Diets and food from vegan perspective.

Moderators: hardcore iv, fredrikw, JP, stateofflux, bronco

Vegan Diets,Nutrition and healthy eating

Postby ssrvj » Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:30 am

Most Respected J.P.---being a site administrator ,you PLEASE go through the entire thread and see who used a "Foul" and "Filthy" language.Standing"Firm' in one's convictions-otherwise proved to be wrong-is one thing---When LOGIC fails,using "Foul" and "Filthy"language is a different thing.You be the "BEST JUDGE".Repeatedly telling that I am "promoting Animal Abuse products" is Mis-Information and Dis-Information.I am arguing that any hypothesis should be discussed without any "Bias".The heading says "Nutrition"---I do not see any "Nutrition" here---My tone is absolutly very cultured as it should come from an Educationist and NOT "Filthy".
ssrvj
New Member
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: chennai-India

Postby arts_bandit » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:06 am

[quote]a cows tit, a humans tit, or a coconut or a mango..


Now I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY like mangoes but....
arts_bandit
Member
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 1:35 am

Postby Konstantin » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:14 pm

[quote="SandGroper"][quote="The Duke"] Am I the only person who finds Ha's writing absolutely captivating?

Yeah, why is that???


Is it raw fruit boosting your creativity areas of the brain? I had a raw food mate who used to swear by that - and lack of sleep tiring out the logical brain parts and enabling the creative bits to shine. There was a record for staying awake set recently by a Cornish Raw fooder. He did see dancing pixies towards the end though.

Diversion aside, it seems we are having to put up with an unneccesarily convoluted promotion of animal products. Several people said the main argument is to avoid harm to animals, I believe that is the point we start from and milk promotion is not right for the board.
You can see my training log if you're really bored: [url]www.veganfitness.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16086&start=360[/url]
User avatar
Konstantin
Moderator
 
Posts: 4600
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:37 pm
Location: Devon, UK
Top

Postby Cookie » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:13 pm

[quote="Papaya"]
There was a record for staying awake set recently by a Cornish Raw fooder. He did see dancing pixies towards the end though.


That's not because he was raw but because he was Cornish :twisted:
User avatar
Cookie
Active Member
 
Posts: 1271
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:16 pm
Location: Caradon, Cornwall
Top

Postby Klepoth » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:36 pm

To get back on the subject: There are several different methods of measuring the "quality" of different proteins but they all have their different strengths and weaknesses so at this moment I personally think that it is very hard to rate different kinds of proteins against each others and be a 100% sure that you are right. And when eating a varied diet and getting more than the minimal needed amount of protein needed to survive I don't think it matters all that much.
I just today ran across an article explaining the different methods of rating protein quality, and here are the more important parts of it:

The quantity of protein in the diet may in fact add importance to the scoring assessment of a given protein. In fact, if you only eat 35- 45 grams a protein a day you better make sure you chose the highest quality protein you can find. On the other hand, if you eat quantities of protein common among bodybuilders, say 1.6 - 1.8 grams per kilogram, the large amount of amino acids overcome slight differences in scoring. Once you achieve a certain levels of quality in a protein supplement, increasing it further will not significantly change it¹s effectiveness when consumed in quantities sufficient to pack on muscle.

Here is a quick overview of the various methods used to determine protein quality. Keep in mind that tests used to determine protein quality use the lower threshold of protein requirements. This creates a metabolic environment far different from that seen in a well fed bodybuilder or athlete.

Chemical Scoring
The most obvious way to determine the quality of a given protein is to break it down into it's individual amino acids. This amino acid profile is then compared to a standard profile. Egg protein is the standard that is used in a Chemical Scoring scale for protein quality and has a rating of 100. Take for example a protein that has a limited amount of a specific amino acid. This amount is then com-pared to the amount found in egg protein. If the amount in the test protein is 75% of that found in egg then the test protein gets a rating of 75. From this you would assume that if you could feed a person an amount of this protein that is exactly his requirement, you would see nitrogen excreted in the urine in the amount of 25 percent of the nitrogen fed.

Although it is relatively easy and inexpensive to do a chemical scoring of any protein, it does not always accu-rately predict how well the body can utilize it. So the ad-vantages of chemical scoring in determining the quality of protein are that it is easy and inexpensive. It's drawback is that it cannot tell you anything about the digestibility of the protein. Chemical scoring also involves a procedure that may destroy certain amino acids and this may lead to inaccurate values. It is also insensitive to substances in a given protein that can adversely effect digestibility. To discover this variable the test would have to utilize living animals.

Biological value (BV)
Biological value (BV) scoring does utilize in vivo testing. To determine the actual amount of a given protein that will be used by the body it is necessary to measure not only urinary, but also fecal losses of nitrogen when that protein is fed to human beings. This method is used inter-nationally.

When measuring the BV of a protein source, two nitrogen studies are done. The first study determines how much nitrogen is lost from the body even when no protein is fed. This amount of nitrogen loss is assumed to be inevitable and that the body will naturally lose it regardless of the amount of nitrogen in the diet. In the second study an amount of the protein is fed that is slightly below what is required. As before, the nitrogen losses are then measured, but this time they are compared to the amount of nitrogen consumed. To determine the actual BV of the protein the re-sults are then derived using this formula:NPU = (N retained / N intake) x 100


This method often involves animal test subjects and is more frequently used. It's draw backs are that if a low NPU is obtained, it is impossible to know if it is because of a poor amino acid profile or low digestibility.

Protein efficiency Ratio (PER)
Protein Efficiency Ratio (PER) is the best known procedure for evaluating protein quality and is used in the United States as the basis for regulations regarding food labeling and for the protein RDA. This method involves rats who are fed a measured amount of protein and weighed periodically as they grow. The PER is expressed as: PER = weight gain (g) / protein intake (g)


The benefits of this method are it's expense and simplicity. It's drawbacks are that it is time consuming; the amino acid needs of rats are not those of humans; and the amino acid needs of growing animals are not those of adult animals (growing animals and humans need more lysine, for example).

The PER is used to qualify statements about daily pro-tein requirement in the United States. You are assumed to eat protein with a PER that is equal to or better than that of the milk protein casein; if the protein's PER is lower, you must eat more of it to meet the RDA. Food labels have to take protein quality into consideration, using the PER of casein as a reference point. If a food has a protein quality equal or better than that of casein, the RDA is 45 grams. If the protein quality is less than casein you need 65 grams for the RDA.

You may be wondering if it makes any difference if you eat your protein from a supplement or from food. Remember that by the time it gets absorbed into the blood stream, all your body knows is how much of each amino acid was present in the food you ate. If you have the money, it is certainly convenient to just drink down a high quality protein supplement. Beyond that, it makes no difference in what form you get your protein from as long as its a complete protein and sufficiently digestible.

Protein digestibility-corrected amino acid score (PDCAA)
As outlined above, protein quality can be measured by the quantity of indispensable amino acids they contain. If a protein contains all the amino acids essential for life, it is called a complete protein and is given a high score. Because some proteins are not as efficiently digested there arose a need to not only test for the amino acid composition of proteins but also for digestibility. This type of testing is called protein digestibility-corrected amino acid score (PDCAA). It is now a federally accepted standard for determining protein quality for preschool aged children.

Some foods however, contain anti-nutritional factors. These factors sometimes occur naturally like in some beans, or are a result of heating and/or cooking, and inhibit the ability of the body to digest and thus absorb certain amino acids. Research has shown the PDCAA method of scoring protein often over estimates the quality of foods containing anti-nutritional factors.12

The take home message from all this is that arguments about who¹s protein scored highest on this test or that test are really meaningless to the average well fed athlete.

The whole article can be found at: http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hsn ... myths.html
User avatar
Klepoth
Member
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:14 pm
Location: Stockholm

Postby erske » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:01 pm

:lol: Hahah... this thread took me 1½h to read... I had ignored it for a very long time cause I figured it would anoy me... it did, but amusment was also a factor :wink:

Klepoth: (and scarce others) good post! good point!

One thing I never reflected over untill reading your post (seeing all the methods stand togeter) is that - with the exception of BV and PER- all the methods use egg as reference value. This I think is hilarious, caus all it realy says then is that animal protein is better cause animal protein is more similar to animal protein than that of plants... *running around my apartment wrighting big circles with one of those gymnastic ribons*
Something irrelevant about cavemen
User avatar
erske
Active Member
 
Posts: 2147
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Sweden

Postby veggie_guy80 » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:05 pm

[quote="Klepoth"] Beyond that, it makes no difference in what form you get your protein from as long as its a complete protein and sufficiently digestible.



Interesting article.

What about combining non-complete proteins, such as rice and beans? Is this the same thing as eating a complete protein such as quinoa?
veggie_guy80
Active Member
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:29 pm
Top

Postby jemmyducks » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:10 pm

But isn't quinoa considered complete only because its AA profile is close to an egg's?!

And does anyone know why an egg is considered the gold standard anyway?
Personal Trainer, Health Coach, Dance Artist
San Francisco, CA
jemmyducks
Active Member
 
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:52 pm
Location: San Francisco

Vegan Diets,Nutrition and Healthy Eating

Postby ssrvj » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:51 pm

>>Klepoth has to say:-"Egg Protein is the STANDARD that is used in Chemical scoring scale for Protein QUALITY and has a RATING of 100"
>>J.Ducks has asked "Why Egg is considered "The GOLD" Standard?

Precisely this is what I wanted to say---Klepoth -you may PLEASE read any Standard Text Book of NUTRITION----Milk Caesin is also given the rating of 100!!!!

I would appreciate if any one giving me the information of any One Vegetable Protein or a mixture of Vegetable Proteins which have been given by the International Experts of Nutrition a rating of 100 or 100+--( with references for Micro Kjeldal method for Total proteins and Thin Layer Chromatography (or HPLC) for Essential Amino Acids(MATTVILPHLY-for Homo sapiens) composition and QUANTITATIVE content.
ssrvj
New Member
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: chennai-India

Re: Vegan Diets,Nutrition and Healthy Eating

Postby JP » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:13 pm

[quote="ssrvj"]>>Klepoth has to say:-"Egg Protein is the STANDARD that is used in Chemical scoring scale for Protein QUALITY and has a RATING of 100"
>>J.Ducks has asked "Why Egg is considered "The GOLD" Standard?

Precisely this is what I wanted to say---Klepoth -you may PLEASE read any Standard Text Book of NUTRITION----Milk Caesin is also given the rating of 100!!!!

I would appreciate if any one giving me the information of any One Vegetable Protein or a mixture of Vegetable Proteins which have been given by the International Experts of Nutrition a rating of 100 or 100+--( with references for Micro Kjeldal method for Total proteins and Thin Layer Chromatography (or HPLC) for Essential Amino Acids(MATTVILPHLY-for Homo sapiens) composition and QUANTITATIVE content.


no, what klepoth is saying that it has a score of 100 because it has been taken as a standard. If some other measurement would have been taken as a standard, then the playing field would be more level.

And that is besides the point. Because eggs and dairy rely on animal abuse and killing of animals (male chicks, calfs etc) the starting point, the ethical groundrule on this board is that egg and dairy products are something we need to get rid of. I am sure that as a vegetarian who cares about animals you agree with this point even if you wouldnt practise it yourself.

It is a different issue of discussing and debating animal product qualities and how to replace them in a vegan way - that is what this board is here for, to help people to eliminate animal abuse products from their diets and to maximise peoples nutritional knowledge.
User avatar
JP
Site Admin
 
Posts: 19190
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:14 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
Top

Re:

Postby Koa » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:47 pm

[quote="Little_Wing"]you can read-
Plant proteins in relation to human protein and amino acid nutrition.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstrac ... 03S?ck=nck
Look to full text(pdf) to see answers... and also tehre is information about some myths about vegeterianism...

And also read this
http://www.dietitians.ca/news/downloads ... r_2003.pdf

But there is truth in what your friend tells you...
You just need to yeat lil more...
if you read for example this-
Modified Food Guide Pyramid for Lactovegetarians and Vegans
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/5/1050

"Protein.

The 10th edition RDA for protein [0.8 g/(kg · d), or 63 and 50 g for the reference adult man and woman, respectively] was formulated for diets containing highly digestible, high quality protein (i.e., egg, meat, milk or fish) (15Citation ). If dairy products, whole grains, beans, nuts and seeds are the primary protein sources in the diet, as for lactovegetarians, recalculation of the protein allowance indicates that the protein digestibility score is only ~90%, relative to diets composed of highly digestible protein [see (15Citation ) for calculation example]. For vegan diets, the protein digestibility falls to 76% of the reference value due to the absence of dairy products. Hence, the recommendation for dietary protein should increase ~20% for vegetarians, 1.0 g/(kg · d), or 75 and 60 g for the reference adult man and woman, respectively."

But there is not realy big problem... but its realy true...
try to include more reach protein like quinoa...


Thanks for the links. Interesting papers.

Does anybody have access to this one:

http://ajl.sagepub.com/content/6/3/250.full.pdf
Squat - 170kg
DL - 200kg
BP - 110kg
OHP - 75kg


"How can you run when you know" -Neil Young
Koa
Active Member
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:58 am
Top

Re: Re:

Postby hardcore iv » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:03 pm

[quote="Koa"]

Does anybody have access to this one:

http://ajl.sagepub.com/content/6/3/250.full.pdf


Yes. PM me.
"When you are born, you are set forth to die. The fact that you live or don't live between these two dates depends solely upon your own will, opportunities and desires. The weight exerciser, of course, indicates that he chooses to live." Joseph Curtis Hise
User avatar
hardcore iv
Active Member
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:36 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Top

Re: Convincing people that plant protein is good as animal p

Postby thestoatyone » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:58 pm

Powerful thread necromancy here!
Vincit omnia pertinax virtus

My Log

[quote="muchluv"]When I grow up I want to be Gelert.
User avatar
thestoatyone
Active Member
 
Posts: 3489
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:39 pm
Location: West Midlands; UK
Top

Re: Convincing people that plant protein is good as animal p

Postby Koa » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:45 am

[quote="thestoatyone"]Powerful thread necromancy here!


I know ... but what can you do .. we all have our fetishes ... :D
Squat - 170kg
DL - 200kg
BP - 110kg
OHP - 75kg


"How can you run when you know" -Neil Young
Koa
Active Member
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:58 am
Top

Re: Convincing people that plant protein is good as animal p

Postby loveliberate » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:18 am

Most Respected JP, Please have these filthy people discontinue their filthy fetish talk. Thank you.
“I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." http://www.a-human-right.com - http://www.aware.org
User avatar
loveliberate
Active Member
 
Posts: 1923
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:53 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon (usa)

PreviousNext

Return to Vegan Diets, Nutrition and Healthy Eating

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests