Convincing people that plant protein is good as animal prot?

Any queries about vegan diet, nutrition, dieting, bulking and healthy eating in general. Diets and food from vegan perspective.

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Postby veggie_guy80 » Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:55 pm

Since I started this thread in the first place, I am disappointed that it has descended into 'chaos'.

ssrv (or whatever the hell his name is) came onto a VEGAN forum and posted in a thread about how to convince someone animal protein is not better than plant protein. This chap blatantly promoted animal products (against the rules of the forum) with garbage science.

I can no longer be bothered to post on this thread.

The end.
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Re: Vegan Diets,Nutrition and Health Eating

Postby Fallen_Horse » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:07 pm

[quote="ssrvj"]From vegetables only the phytic acid (oxidized phytol of chlorophyll of green vegetables in fair amounts) is the chelating agent of calcium. Oxalate is negligible. Oxalates mostly come from glycine catabolism and HMP shunt from glycolate>oxalate. Phytic acid and metabolic oxalate chelates the meagerly available calcium due to lack of milk, resulting in osteoporosis and Paget's Disease at middle age. Dietary calcium: phosphorous ratio is also a "limiting factor' in the formation of bone, tooth and nail calcification - the subject is not that simple as it appears.


[quote="veggie_guy80"]ssrv (or whatever the hell his name is) came onto a VEGAN forum and posted in a thread about how to convince someone animal protein is not better than plant protein. This chap blatantly promoted animal products (against the rules of the forum) with garbage science.


(Note I have edited ssrvj's post for grammar)

Not to be the devils advocate here, but don't we actually need to disprove him before calling his argument 'garbage science'?
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Postby veggie_guy80 » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:09 pm

I already did by posting a scientific link explaining how we do not need calcium from milk to be healthy.

That really IS my last word on this thread.
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Re: Vegan Diets,Nutrition and Health Eating

Postby fredrikw » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:17 pm

[quote="Fallen_Horse"]Not to be the devils advocate here, but don't we actually need to disprove him before calling his argument 'garbage science'?

or better yet establishing that this is not a discussion that is appropriate on VF, this way we could have avoided this whole ugly debate in the first place.
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Re: Vegan Diets,Nutrition and Health Eating

Postby Ava Odoéména » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:43 pm

[Fallen_Horse]

> Not to be the devils advocate here, but don't we actually need to
> disprove him before calling his argument 'garbage science'?

No, just as people on a children's fitness forum do not need to disprove a theory that beating children soothes the stress level of the beating parent... It puzzles me that you fail to make the connection here. Oops, was I being condescending and aggressive again?

Beating children as a relaxation method is absurd, exploiting mammals for their milk is just as absurd in this day and age, especially since the path of proof that a wholesome vegan diet is not only equal nutrition wise but in many ways superior is well trotted. It's old news. And because it *is* old news, dairy and egg propaganda is especially inappropriate.
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Vegan Diets,Nutrition and healthy Eating

Postby ssrvj » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:08 pm

Fallen_Horse---You have edited my posting to correct the grammer? --What a Pity!!!!--Please show me where you have corrected?

Please try to be Sceintific--Scientifically argue why Dairy and Poultry products are bad and quote the references.--or if you are interested only in making some empty rhetorics---a lot of noise like pebbles rolling in a metallic pot, amongst 4-5 or persons like you and that Vegie80 with foul smelling mouth,continue the drama.You said I have spent a lot of years in School -yes-11 years in School+ 4years in Graduation+2 years in M.S.+6 years in Ph.D.=23 years ,I have spent in School and 18 years in teaching M.S.Students and guided many students for their Ph.D programme.(Protein malnutrition and GABA shunt in Brain metabolism)(PUFA and Cholesterol metabolism)--Nutrition!!!!!-- you are a School drop out---if you can talk about Protein ,why can not I?

Can you PLEASE give me the names of a few Vegetable Proteins--their Essential Amino Acids (for Homo sapiens) composition and how it compares with the IDEAL PROTEIN(s) suggested by W.H.O.?--by the by can you PLEASE tell me who coined the word "Protein" and what was its rationale?--Don't waste your time in correcting my grammer---Learn a little basic Science to discuss VEGANISM!!!
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Postby stateofflux » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:49 pm

ssrvj

This is a vegan board, and by and large the vegans here are vegans for ethical reasons. The aim of this board is to create a pleasant and non-aggressive board for vegans, so your animal product pushing here is not appreciated or welcome here and neither is your tone. I am not surprised that people here have not treated you with respect.

If you want to ask questions about veganism and actually learn something, post in the new vegan section, but note that your promotion of animal abuse will not be tolerated on this forum.

Also, if you are indeed from India, why is your ISP based in New York?
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Re: Vegan Diets,Nutrition and healthy Eating

Postby drummer boy » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:12 pm

[quote="ssrvj"]Please try to be Sceintific--Scientifically argue why Dairy and Poultry products are bad and quote the references.


from The China Study by T. Colin Campbell:

"...the next logical question was whether plant protein, tested in the same way, has the same effect on cancer promotion as casein [which makes up 87% of cow's milk protein]. The answer is an astonishing "NO." In these experiments, plant protein did not promote cancer growth, even at the higher levels of intake." p.59

"...a pattern was beginning to emerge: nutrients from animal-based foods increased tumor development while nutrients from plant-based foods decreased tumor development." p.66
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Vegan Diets,Nutrittion and Healthy Eating

Postby ssrvj » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:14 pm

Abi,--Thank you for your kind message.

Coming to the discussions in the thread---I am all in favour of Vegetarian diet and ,I feel we should Scientifically discuss and convince people the dangers of Food from Animal Sources than emotionally blackmailing them---Quite a lot of information is available in the Litreature about the detrimental effects of Animal Products.One major aspect of Meat Food is there is very limited choice--Beef,mutton,Chicken,Turkey,Fish,Eggs ---Recently from China a numberof Non-Convebtional meats -like snakes etc have started coming in the market.Secondly when meat Production has become an Industry to meet the requirement of billions of people,many un-desirable practises creep in --like use of hormones to increase the milk output and eggs of chicken(365 or more per annum etc) giving Antibitics to animals before killing---depleting Glycogen of the Liver of farm aniamals-completely bleeding them before killing,addition of mono-sodium glutamate to increase the taste of the meat ,High frequency electro magnetic irradiation (to avoid preservatives) Use of inert gacses in packing etc make the meat eaters more vulnerable for many killer diseases. I shall discuss with you an article from the latest Journal of American Medical Association(JAMA) on Red meat and Animal Saturated fat-- but I find this forum is filled with Egoists arguing on trivial matters,leaving the main aim of the forum,in spite of JP's balanced Captainship!!. (to be continued)
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Postby ha » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:11 am

here is my science..ssrvj.. picture this..

come for a bike ride with me, we will hit the some big climbs over and over again..i can ride for 51 hours on 40 minutes sleep..but we wont go that far unless you want too..lol!

for ease lets just ride till your glycogen levels go zub zub..ie run out. then lets see what looks more tempting in nature..a cows tit, a humans tit, or a coconut or a mango..

still not convinced?
put your hand on your chest. a little more to the left..feel that thing beating? thats called a heart..next grab the neck of any animal. you feel like snapping it? neither do i..

we can analyse till paralysis..all we have to do is look around at all the successful vegan/raw vegan athletes on the planet. and to me these plant based athletes are stronger in heart and mind than the meat n milk guzzlers.. eat what you want champ, just dont think you can use 'science' to deter true vegans from their heart..

people looking to justify animal addictions will hide behind science that supports the meat industry world..

personally im a grown man. i dont need titty milk anymore. i aint no toddler.. a lot of 'men' out there still think they need mummy's milk. thats cool, just keep your toddler talk to yourself..lol!

peace!
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Re: Vegan Diets,Nutrittion and Healthy Eating

Postby JP » Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:00 am

[quote="ssrvj"]but I find this forum is filled with Egoists arguing on trivial matters,leaving the main aim of the forum,in spite of JP's balanced Captainship!!. (to be continued)


please re-read .flux's post above.

Its not my captainship, there are several mods here! And actually the tone of the board is set by the members, not mods.

And i think you have adopted a very nasty and bad tone and for a new member who promoted animal abuse products on a vegan board you got off lightly.

Like .flux said if you are interested in learning more about the animal abuse in dairy and egg production, and/or nutritional matters relating to it, please post to the new vegan section, the rest of the forum is off limits to animal abuse product promotion.

peace.
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Postby The Duke » Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:39 am

But on a more positve note ...

Am I the only person who finds Ha's writing absolutely captivating?

Ha, I don't buy into your B12 theories but man can you write!!
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Postby SandGroper » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:10 am

[quote="The Duke"] Am I the only person who finds Ha's writing absolutely captivating?

Yeah, why is that???


As for ssrvj, I reckon his arrival here is a cry for help. It must be difficult to shake off 3,000 odd years of tradition and become vegan in India. When vegetarianism is so ingrained in the society and religion (I think Krishna was a keen milk drinker?), veganism must be a totally alien concept.

Ssrjv has stated a distaste for the "undesirable" practices of the dairy and egg industry. This indicates to me a genuine interest in veganism, and perhaps some deeper discomfort with his/her own present outlook that he/she is unable to voice. No matter how well educated a person is, it's a huge step to challenge a lifetime of conditioning and belief. It is however a highly liberating experience when you can do it.

Ssrjv, perhaps you should forget your education for a while and forget the comments made to you here. Listen truthfully to your inner voice (your Atman??) and choose your path.

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Postby remixrobot » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:23 pm

Alright, Im not sure if this thread has completely imploded but I am going to throw a few bits in.

It is easy to see why in the western cultures, a high and "readily available" protein source is of value...most people I talk to at the gym are there for apperance reasons...not fitness or performance reasons. Therefore..having some sort of high protein animal products is very appealing to them because they feel it will really cause their muscles to pop or to give them that lean superman physique...In reality...many of the people that are thought to have great bodies (and this is totally subjective) are that way because of the activities they do. Cyclist don't neccesarily go into riding to grow killer quads...but it usually happens anyways...simply from doing the activity....

Basically...its a disconnect from reality which causes many people to turn to the "most effective" protein.

There are also a couple of logical disconnects that I find with using animal products:

1:Cows reach their mature size within a year. Most tests regarding protein intake have been done on rats which reach physical maturity within five months. It takes humans ~18 years to reach physical maturity...why would we need something that is created to grow a 500+lb. animal within a year?

2:If dogs milk is for puppies, pigs milk is for piglettes, human milk is for baby's and cows milk is for calves...why do some people make the logical step that cows milk is for humans? If using the same logic, would we not also consume dog and whale milk? (i am sorry if that comment brings up distubing thoughts...that is not my purpose) How do people make that logical step?

Thats all...I hope this thread ends soon.
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Postby ssrvj » Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:56 am

Flux -Administrator has asked:-"Also if you are from India,why is your ISP based in New York?

I am permanently living in Chennai(during British rule it was called Madras),a metropolis in India from 8 th February,1965(for the past 42 years)---I have already told that I am a qualified Nutritionist-I am going to various countries on assignments.Currently ,I am in New York.I will be here for a couple of months more and then return to Chennai. If things go as per my plans, I may be in Edinborough for a couple of months sometime in May-June 2008--This is for your Kind information
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