Contradictions / misinformation on Vegan diet

Going vegan and new vegans in need of support or information.

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Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:10 am

will_220 wrote:As soya is very prominent in a vegan diet

After a grueling second workout of the day I would once consume a large (free range) steak

I consume eggs
Btw, how the fuck do you know the eggs are just as good as the steak? Or the steak as good as the eggs? Or that both are better than soy? How do you make sure? How can you live with yourself maybe eating the non-optimal choice!? How will you solve this?

AAS for whole eggs was 132, 137 for buffalo free range, I wonder if I should spend some time finding something with a higher value just to mess up your mind =P
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Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:14 am

Oh, and btw, wheat + milk would most likely beat your steak when it comes to amino acid ratios, compared to something totally unrelated to human muscle building.
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Postby Andrewc » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:19 am

Some interesting reading;
http://www.jissn.com/content/4/1/4

Background
Evidence suggests an inverse relationship between soy protein intake and serum concentrations of male sex hormones. Anecdotal evidence indicates that these alterations in serum sex hormones may attenuate changes in lean body mass following resistance training. However, little empirical data exists regarding the effects of soy and milk-based proteins on circulating androgens and exercise induced body composition changes.


Methods
For 12 weeks 20 subjects were supplemented with 50 g per day of one of four different protein sources (Soy concentrate; Soy isolate; Soy isolate and whey blend, and Whey blend only) in combination with a resistance-training program. Body composition, testosterone, estradiol and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured at baseline and week 12.


Results
Protein supplementation resulted in a significant increase in lean body mass independent of protein source (0.5 ± 1.1 and 0.9 ± 1.4 kg, p = 0.006, p = 0.007). No significant differences were observed between groups for total and free testosterone, SHBG, percentage body fat, BMI or body weight. The Testosterone/Estradiol ratio increased across all groups (+13.4, p = 0.005) and estradiol decreased (p = 0.002). Within group analysis showed significant increases in the Testosterone/Estradiol ratio in soy isolate + whey blend group (+16.3, p = 0.030). Estradiol was significantly lower in the whey blend group (-9.1 ± 8.7 pg/ml, p = 0.033).


Conclusion
This investigation shows that 12 week supplementation with soy protein does not decrease serum testosterone or inhibit lean body mass changes in subjects engaged in a resistance exercise program.
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Postby offense74 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:33 am

Mr. Cleetus wrote:
o74 wrote:When it comes to research I think it would be wise to ask what we don't know instead of just forming decisions on what might be just 5% of the on the whole subject.


I assume you mean in our (here on this forum) interpretation of the research and our ability to get full comprehension on topics that are out of most of our areas of expertise. It is very easy to misinterpret when lacking the appropriate background knowledge, and knowledge of the literature. Not that we shouldn't try! :D

No, that is actually not what I meant. :D
I meant knowledge in general. If the only thing you know about how to get to China is that you need a car it doesn't mean that sitting your ass down in one will get you there, however our brains will form decisions from the information we have regardless of the quality and quantity of the information. It's neofrontal cortex, homo sapiens thing.
They've compared rats to humans in a test where you randomize putting a candy in one of two "hallways", however it will be randomized that 70% of the time the candy will be placed in one and 30% in the other. Humans got beat by a landslide. The rats realized that the odds were better in one direction so they more or less got it right 70% of the time. Homo sapiens were trying to find a pattern (that wasn't there) so they got a lot less.
Another interesting thing is that our brain can only handle so much information when we make decisions. In a test where the subject selected cars the scientist gave them 5 criteria on which to form the decision on which car to choose (there was one that was apparently better than the others) the subjects did well and chose the right car in like 70% of the time (can't remember the exact number). When they had 12 criteria they sucked immensely. I can see the confusion relating to this after hanging at meathead boards or reading BB magazines.
(Much of this I read about in this book. :D

@will_220: How is it that it is the amino acid balance that gives you the results? It's ridiculous to state that the only thing needed to build cells are amino acids. As important are probably peer support, stress, antioxidant levels, sexual habits, sleeping habits, peptides in various proteins, immune function, bacterial flora in the gut, the weather, the mood of your coworkers, etc, etc. However, the thing you emphasize is amino acid balance. Why? Because that's the one thing we think we know about. I bet you that much of the research done in the "amino acid completeness and human fitness" is never going to hit you because it's no point for anyone to promote those results. In the current market economy, anything pointing to you needing more of anything is just perfect for everybody.
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"The surest way to happiness is low expectations."
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Postby xJimx » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:01 am

Andrewc wrote:there's "just something extra in the meat".


I'm sick of hearing this too! Not so much directed at me, but generally directed at my kids by the overweight parents of their friends. Of course when questioned just what this extra something is they have no idea what to say.

I agree with the general point that overthinking diet (vegan or otherwise) is fairly pointless. A few years back my twin sister (so someone with fairly similar genes to me I'd guess) was completely ripped, superfit & represented the British army internationally at triathlon & 'tough guy' type events, whilst surviving on a diet based around cheese on toast & lager.
Meat is still murder, dairy is still rape.
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Postby JP » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:21 am

The reason why i asked about the competetive history is that as a rule of thumb, these things worry the beginners the most*

Me included, used to really be into this stuff till i realised that top level athletes dont give a rats arse about it, and they really dont make any difference.


(*exceptions and terms and conditions apply_
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Postby Clem Snide » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:22 am

People want to believe this stuff. They want to believe that there is a magic protein ratio or a secret amino acid that will make them succeed.

These people would be best served by just eating a balanced diet and putting their energies into training harder, but no amount of reasoned evidence will change their minds if they have convinced themselves there is a silver bullet, a secret that all the more successful athletes are relying on.
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Postby gauze » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:56 am

it's sad that we need to bend over backwards with a 5 page thread to quash false diet rumours THAT ARE DISPELLED MANY TIMES OVER IN THIS FORUM, for a guy who seems intent on finding any loophole NOT to go vegan.

There have been many examples given of top athletes eating junk food (amongst other things) and not giving a rats ass about exact nutrient ratios.

I would bet money on you not being an elite level athlete, and being better served training harder/smarter than worrying over minute details that don't mean anything. Just check over this forum - there are tonnes of successful vegan athletes, many of whom have seen improvements since becoming vegan.
"I've been doing a lot of running, swimming, cycling, well, I mean, you know how it is..."

-"NO. Actually I don't know, I play real sports, I'm not trying to be the best at exercising."
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Postby JohnBarleycorn » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:58 am

JP wrote:The reason why i asked about the competetive history is that as a rule of thumb, these things worry the beginners the most*

Me included, used to really be into this stuff till i realised that top level athletes dont give a rats arse about it, and they really dont make any difference.


(*exceptions and terms and conditions apply_


Agreed !

Me too !
I eat to nourish my compassion, not my greed

I'm the man they couldn't kill ! I cannot be destroyed with conventional weapons !

And probably the former fastest British Vegan 10, 25 and 50 mile TT rider. Probably.
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Postby Andrewc » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:02 am

xJimx wrote:
Andrewc wrote:there's "just something extra in the meat".


I'm sick of hearing this too! Not so much directed at me, but generally directed at my kids by the overweight parents of their friends. Of course when questioned just what this extra something is they have no idea what to say.

I agree with the general point that overthinking diet (vegan or otherwise) is fairly pointless. A few years back my twin sister (so someone with fairly similar genes to me I'd guess) was completely ripped, superfit & represented the British army internationally at triathlon & 'tough guy' type events, whilst surviving on a diet based around cheese on toast & lager.


Man, fielding these questions as a vegan can be exhausting enough, but I'm looking forward to being a vegan parent and trying this. I guess I like to say that the presence of atoms can be established, so I'm sure that this "something extra" just doesn't exist.
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Postby xzebrasx » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:44 pm

Andrewc wrote:there's "just something extra in the meat".


Actually, there is: creatine, taurine, carnitine, carnosine, vitamin B12, EPA/DHA, CLA.
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Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:07 pm

xzebrasx wrote:
Andrewc wrote:there's "just something extra in the meat".


Actually, there is: creatine, taurine, carnitine, carnosine, vitamin B12, EPA/DHA, CLA.
:D

OWNED! ;D

(all those are vegan supplementable though, hardest with the EPA. Beta-alanine is probably a better way to increase carnosine levels than actual carnosine though.)
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Postby Andrewc » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:31 pm

xzebrasx wrote:
Andrewc wrote:there's "just something extra in the meat".


Actually, there is: creatine, taurine, carnitine, carnosine, vitamin B12, EPA/DHA, CLA.


Haha. Okay you got me good.

I'll argue that, a) They're not all strictly animal derived, and b) they can be supplemented in a vegan diet quite easily.

For clarification of what I meant, the remainder of the statement was "they haven't found it yet, but it's there". So one could assume that this magical (yet to be discovered and isolated) ingredient of meat and animal products must be so powerful that I hope it's banned by WADA so that all athletes subject to testing are restricted from eating meat ;).

Or you could argue that it doesn't exist and it's simply an excuse for some people to be skeptical of veganism in sports.
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Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:39 pm

Andrewc wrote:
xzebrasx wrote:
Andrewc wrote:there's "just something extra in the meat".


Actually, there is: creatine, taurine, carnitine, carnosine, vitamin B12, EPA/DHA, CLA.


Haha. Okay you got me good.

I'll argue that, a) They're not all strictly animal derived
Care to explain a vegan (natural) source of creatine?
One of taurine?
One of carnitine?
I would like to say B12 here to, atleast useful.
CLA? (Wikipedia mentions some shrooms, but shrooms isn't really vegetables either. Guess on that regard the algae producing EPA and DHA may not be either, I'm not sure.)




Regarding "they haven't found it yet" I think it's more "but I have no idea what it may be, but it can't possible be that vegetables are ass good" (or they will say it's the protein.) I doubt most people got any facts except heresay / common sense for their claim.
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Postby Andrewc » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:58 pm

aliquis wrote:
Andrewc wrote:
xzebrasx wrote:
Andrewc wrote:there's "just something extra in the meat".


Actually, there is: creatine, taurine, carnitine, carnosine, vitamin B12, EPA/DHA, CLA.


Haha. Okay you got me good.

I'll argue that, a) They're not all strictly animal derived
Care to explain a vegan (natural) source of creatine?
One of taurine?
One of carnitine?
I would like to say B12 here to, atleast useful.
CLA? (Wikipedia mentions some shrooms, but shrooms isn't really vegetables either. Guess on that regard the algae producing EPA and DHA may not be either, I'm not sure.)




Regarding "they haven't found it yet" I think it's more "but I have no idea what it may be, but it can't possible be that vegetables are ass good" (or they will say it's the protein.) I doubt most people got any facts except heresay / common sense for their claim.


I'll argue that, a) They're not all strictly animal derived


SOME not all. I have heard that creatine can be found in cranberrys? If this is the case I'll grant that it's most likely trace elements and of little value to the body.



*Forgive me for not being a scientist of any kind, but I did receive an encouragement award from my year 10 science teacher if that holds any value.
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