Contradictions / misinformation on Vegan diet

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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:38 pm

[quote="will_220"]
This for me typifies the whole discourse for me. Vegan nutrition for athletes seems to be
somewhat understudied and could quite likely be less than optimum for athletic performance and gains.


I'd completely agree with the first statement. In the second one I suspect you could remove vegan from the statement and it would still be true, i.e., the way many people fuel themselves for sport may be less than optimal because sports nutrition still contains many holes, and ideas about what is optimal change rapidly. So we can do out best by being open to learning as much as we can about it and improving our vegan diets to the best we know how.
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Postby SpugFab » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:41 pm

Show me some interviews with top athletes of any description discussing the importance of methionine and lysine ratios. I would be interested to hear their take on the subject.

Usain Bolt is often quoted on the chicken nuggets he ate during the Olympics. Is that the optimum us vegans are trying to replicate in our diets?
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:49 pm

[quote="SpugFab"]
Usain Bolt is often quoted on the chicken nuggets he ate during the Olympics. Is that the optimum us vegans are trying to replicate in our diets?


What Usain Bolt or any other pro/elite does has nothing to do with what is optimal; I think you are clearly showing that by using it as an example. I really do not care what he does. It should be possible to learn enough about how the body works to answer questions such as I and will_220 have asked. I have just asked if anybody has any knowledge on the subject. Maybe it is beyond current knowledge and if so, I agree with you: don't worry about it. But if there is such knowledge why do you not what to know about it?
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Postby SpugFab » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:10 pm

[quote="Mr. Cleetus"]But if there is such knowledge why do you not what to know about it?

I read nutritional advice like the next man. To refresh your memory on the point of this thread:

[quote="will_220"]I feel like giving up, I just don't think this diet can work as well as a meat diet... as sad as that is.


On being told that the protein combining type ideas will is worried about are questionable, even being rescinded by their original author, will tells us that it may hold true for regular people, but for athletes like will this debunked idea is of vital importance.

My point is that these things just aren't held as important by athletes. Simply point me in the direction of athletes who attribute their increase in form to a change protein ratio in their post-workout meal. Then I will believe.

Is it not also possible that further knowledge of the human body will lead to the conclusion that there isn't a single optimal way to eat? That it's actually quite easy to eat in a way that ensures optimal recovery and performance?
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Postby aliquis » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:41 pm

[quote="will_220"]"Most likely false"; you do not actually know. This for me typifies the whole discourse for me. Vegan nutrition for athletes seems to be
somewhat understudied and could quite likely be less than optimum for athletic performance and gains.

Though I admit there have been some successful vegan athletes, so it can potentially be an effective diet.

Without the advice from top nutritionists however; i'm extremely cautious.
Well, I know protein synthesis raise a lot if you supplement EAAs before the workout, so there you've got one window of opportunity I guess. But then they don't seem to study protein synthesis during the whole day or multiple days after that so I have no idea if it gets down later thanks to that. Some graph suggested that it got somewhat lower the rest of the day so ... I'm rather sceptical. Last years I've taken lots of soy protein and EAAs but I haven't overeaten and I haven't trained as hard as I used to do, and I can't say I've been happy with the results ... Earlier I ate less soy protein, no EAAs but worked out harder and ate more and I was very happy with my results .. I ate more meals and closer to my workout to though but that was part of the "eating more", I doubt it made much of a difference except that. People have good results on intermittent fasting to.

There was a bust of the opportunity window on t-nation recently but nothing say they know a shit about what they are talking about either.

But yeah, food is important, but your body don't totally recover in a couple of hours so .. and the effect of training sits in for longer than that.

If I'd manage to eat most of my food after my workout would I do it? Yes, probably. But if I don't it's most likely not the end of the world.

If you go by such rules what about the "don't train for more than 45 minutes?", do you know anyone who train just a little which have got better results than people who train a lot?





As I said do you think they would sell a lot of supplement unless they hyped the window of opportunity? There have been lots of studies on what amount of protein is necessary for an athlete and you won't find any 2 gram / lbs outside the supplement selling pages .. But if you can do fine on less would you buy their product? Especially if you're not in a hurry? Would I eat more protein if there was a simple way to do it as a vegan? Of course I would. But I feel taking soy protein make me cheat somewhat more with the rest of my diet than I would do if I'd have to make sure to actually eat some legumes. Combination would most likely be better though.



Xtend has been shown to give more muscle then whey, but it's a BCAA supplement and I guess they made the study in favour of Xtend. That is no food for a long time before workout = fast uptake of the product = fast increase of amino acids and protein synthesis vs wheys slower response. What if the people had eaten closer to the workout? Then Xtend would go out slower and there would already be amino acids around, how much better would it be vs whey then? So is Xtend a must have during your workouts? Maybe, maybe not.


I sure as hell know I got better results and trained harder when I was "allowed" to eat close to my workouts than when I tried not to just to optimize the uptake of the EAAs resulting in less food into my body and less energetic workouts.
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:48 pm

[quote="SpugFab"]

I read nutritional advice like the next man.


excellent. :)
[quote="SpugFab"]

On being told that the protein combining type ideas will is worried about are questionable, even being rescinded by their original author, will tells us that it may hold true for regular people, but for athletes like will this debunked idea is of vital importance.


I can see there is a possibility for distinction between what makes a perfectly healthy diet and what makes an optimal diet for recovery during intense exercise (and maybe it is just me who added the recovery bit, but I do not think so). And that is something typically not considered in nutrition recommendations - I thought that was what he is getting at. I certainly do not see it of vital importance, but as many here do, I put a huge amount of effort into my training and racing and any benefit I could get is welcome.

[quote="SpugFab"]
My point is that these things just aren't held as important by athletes. Simply point me in the direction of athletes who attribute their increase in form to a change protein ratio in their post-workout meal. Then I will believe.


again, this is a huge red herring. Take professional cyclists as an example. Ignoring diet, they often make quite curious choices in equipment (maybe sponsor related), position on the bike, training. and including such bizarre things as aging tubular tires for 10 years. Much of what they do is based on tradition and superstition and goes against current knowledge. I see no reason my diet should follow anything they do. As I said before they are often good despite what they do, not because of it.


[quote="SpugFab"]
Is it not also possible that further knowledge of the human body will lead to the conclusion that there isn't a single optimal way to eat? That it's actually quite easy to eat in a way that ensures optimal recovery and performance?


Yes, of course and I hope you are correct. Actually I think I secretly hope you are wrong, cuz then people that are not interested enough to learn about it will be at a disadvantage in competition. :P
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Postby aliquis » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:50 pm

[quote="Mr. Cleetus"][quote="SpugFab"]
Usain Bolt is often quoted on the chicken nuggets he ate during the Olympics. Is that the optimum us vegans are trying to replicate in our diets?


What Usain Bolt or any other pro/elite does has nothing to do with what is optimal; I think you are clearly showing that by using it as an example. I really do not care what he does. It should be possible to learn enough about how the body works to answer questions such as I and will_220 have asked. I have just asked if anybody has any knowledge on the subject. Maybe it is beyond current knowledge and if so, I agree with you: don't worry about it. But if there is such knowledge why do you not what to know about it?
The thing is, people who don't own millions on supplements don't really care that much about minute details, and a shitload of trainers in all sports would most likely tell you that you don't need any supplements. Atleast that's the official opinion here in Sweden, the only people who tell you that you need them are the pro interviews in magazines and the supplement industry. No shit ..

And if you are after things which actually works all you have to do is check WADA doping lists:
http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/docu ... ist_En.pdf

Atleast those things are banned because they most likely give you an advantage .. Does that mean you should take them?

And I doubt the pros knows it all either, just look at levrones blog for instance. With world class genetics and lots of drugs you don't need to know everything.



Anyway, non-supplement sponsored scientists don't really care that much and waste their time in testing this and that for performance, and the sponsored people who do well, they don't always have your best interest in mind.

There are a shitload of succesful athletes which don't go into minute details, by hard work (and drugs ..)
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:15 am

[quote="aliquis"]
Atleast those things are banned because they most likely give you an advantage .. Does that mean you should take them?


sure. sorry, maybe I took things off track a bit. I was really only interested in what, if anything, was known about amino content and timing for recovery.


[quote="aliquis"]
Anyway, non-supplement sponsored scientists don't really care that much and waste their time in testing this and that for performance, and the sponsored people who do well, they don't always have your best interest in mind.


yes, and thats why I've never bothered to reading any marketing propaganda from any supplement company. That does not mean it is impossible to have unbiased studies about nutrition and performance, I have been a participant in several, and have a friend who spends his life doing such studies But like you say, they are harder to come by.
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:10 am

Here's an interesting one. I may only have institutional access so I should not post the article. :P so not sure if most of you can get it.

Essential amino acids and muscle protein recovery from resistance exercise
Elisabet Børsheim, Kevin D. Tipton, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 283: E648-E657, 2002; doi:10.1152/ajpendo.00466.2001
0193-1849/02

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/283/4/E648

what they said (my lay interpretation) was that muscle protein balance increased due to ingestion of EAA immediately following exercise but that timing was maybe unimportant. They also said that the balance increase was somewhat independent of the content of the AA, i.e., the balance did not increase in proportion to what was ingested. They contrasted this to another study which found more effective muscle gain (not muscle protein balance) by ingesting directly after training than 2hrs later - but they suggested there were other factors (such as appetite suppression) controlling this.

I don't even know what muscle protein balance is.... anyway it seems like a good place to start if one is interested in the topic.
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Postby will_220 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:32 am

[quote="SpugFab"]will tells us that it may hold true for regular people, but for athletes like will this debunked idea is of vital importance.



That's not true. I said it would be of "importance", but you added the word "vital" to make my opinion seem more extreme.


I think there is truth in what has been said in the forum, eating a lot of varied protein sources each day is the way to go for a vegan diet. However I still think, as most of these sources are incomplete proteins, if one is very serious about their sport, it would be beneficial to them to know what exactly is being put inside their system. Knowledge is the key to success


[quote] Show me some interviews with top athletes of any description discussing the importance of methionine and lysine ratios. I would be interested to hear their take on the subject





As soya is very prominent in a vegan diet, i'm sure any nutritionist would consider the deficient amino acids in soya when planning a diet for a professional vegan diet.


What i'm trying to say is. After a grueling second workout of the day I would once consume a large (free range) steak. That thing would fill me with all the essential amino acids, all the conditionally essential acids and non essential ones too... I could go to sleep happy that my body had all it needed to repair all the hard activity of that day.. and I would be subsequently well enough to do it again the next day.

When I turned to soya... i went to bed wondering if my body had all it needed to repair and supercompensate from all the hard work, and if i'd still have the stamina to train the next day.

I wanted to recreate that steak with non-animal sources... but i'm beginning to think that isn't possible.

For the record I no longer eat free range steak. I consume eggs (free range reputable source, RSCPA "freedom food" chicken. I am currently doing this research so i can limit the amount of animal products in my diet.

I'd rather not eat these animal products, but i'm now thinking they are more beneficial than plant sources.
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Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:48 am

[quote="Mr. Cleetus"]Here's an interesting one. I may only have institutional access so I should not post the article. :P so not sure if most of you can get it.

Essential amino acids and muscle protein recovery from resistance exercise
Elisabet Børsheim, Kevin D. Tipton, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 283: E648-E657, 2002; doi:10.1152/ajpendo.00466.2001
0193-1849/02

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/283/4/E648

what they said (my lay interpretation) was that muscle protein balance increased due to ingestion of EAA immediately following exercise but that timing was maybe unimportant. They also said that the balance increase was somewhat independent of the content of the AA, i.e., the balance did not increase in proportion to what was ingested. They contrasted this to another study which found more effective muscle gain (not muscle protein balance) by ingesting directly after training than 2hrs later - but they suggested there were other factors (such as appetite suppression) controlling this.

I don't even know what muscle protein balance is.... anyway it seems like a good place to start if one is interested in the topic.
I don't see the difference in muscle gain vs muscle protein balance, seems kinda weird, positive muscle protein balance should mean store more protein than what is broken down = more muscle gain in my book but ...

And as long as I knew there haven't been any studies using EAAs both before and after at the same time, but before works better than after, and afterwards you could take it after 1, 2 and 3 hours and you would get an increase every time so it doesn't have to be all in one occasion. Also I think the guy who reads and comment on all the studies the whole time has said that EAAs one hour after workout for some reason or another increased the response more then immediatly afterwards (but since your text talks about some case with two hours I guess that may have been it, dunno.)

Anyway earlier I had "knew" since I was told that 6 gram of EAAs was enough, 10 gram gave somewhat better response, but 20 gram didn't gave better response than 10. But then I heard that the studies had like 6 people in them, and I guess they may have been very average in size (haven't read them myself) and they may even have been inexperienced with weight lifting as most people are in studies in this area (students, not athletes? =P may I pressume? :D)

Anyway, I've taken 10 or 10+ gram EAAs before workout but now when I bought purple wraath I went down to 7 gram which is one serving since it's rather expensive. But when I heard about the amount of people I can't stop by wondering what happens with something like 150 kg who does weight lifting for 4 hours per day. Is 6 gram enough for that person to? ... So today I took 2 servings before, as in 14 gram, 1 serving Xtend mid workout (7 gram BCAAs) and less then one scoop EAA-X at home (around 10 gram EAAs?)

So that's 31 gram of free form essential amino acids only around workout so I guess that should cover my bases pretty well, after all it's the same amount of essential amino acids as 60+ gram of whey would have. (And non-essential amino acids while of course used by the body don't seem to affect the protein synthesis, as in EAA+NEAA don't give better response than EAAs only. But then Leucine alone does most of the work I guess. I think I've read glycine may help though?

Oh well, who cares, on my fourth can of legumes to =p



I'm just somewhat afraid of all the flavoring, weirdo american colorings banned in the EU and artificial sweeteners. Especially for the american stuff there are great tastes and lots of it, but that should tell something about the amounts of sweeteners ...


And yes, 10-15 gram of EAAs can easily kill my appetite for 2 hours or so .. Not as in that I feel full but just that I'm not hungry any more. Perfect diet fuel ;D
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Postby Andrewc » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:50 am

[quote="will_220"][quote="SpugFab"]will tells us that it may hold true for regular people, but for athletes like will this debunked idea is of vital importance.



That's not true. I said it would be of "importance", but you added the word "vital" to make my opinion seem more extreme.


I think there is truth in what has been said in the forum, eating a lot of varied protein sources each day is the way to go for a vegan diet. However I still think, as most of these sources are incomplete proteins, if one is very serious about their sport, it would be beneficial to them to know what exactly is being put inside their system. Knowledge is the key to success


[quote] Show me some interviews with top athletes of any description discussing the importance of methionine and lysine ratios. I would be interested to hear their take on the subject





As soya is very prominent in a vegan diet, i'm sure any nutritionist would consider the deficient amino acids in soya when planning a diet for a professional vegan diet.


What i'm trying to say is. After a grueling second workout of the day I would once consume a large (free range) steak. That thing would fill me with all the essential amino acids, all the conditionally essential acids and non essential ones too... I could go to sleep happy that my body had all it needed to repair all the hard activity of that day.. and I would be subsequently well enough to do it again the next day.

When I turned to soya... i went to bed wondering if my body had all it needed to repair and supercompensate from all the hard work, and if i'd still have the stamina to train the next day.

I wanted to recreate that steak with non-animal sources... but i'm beginning to think that isn't possible.

For the record I no longer eat free range steak. I consume eggs (free range reputable source, RSCPA "freedom food" chicken. I am currently doing this research so i can limit the amount of animal products in my diet.

I'd rather not eat these animal products, but i'm now thinking they are more beneficial than plant sources.


As common as soy products are in a vegan diet it's not the only source of protein. If you did a little research you would find that soy protein is an ingredient of a surprisingly large amount of non-vegan food, and is commonly fed to the livestock you're eating. Are the unsuspecting consumers of these products wasting away at all due to the presence of soy?

To assume that you train harder and imply that the rest of us here are achieving mediocre results due to our diets is somewhat naive. Perhaps if you were to maintain a vegan diet for a few weeks you may learn what does and doesn't work for you. Again, you don't need to pull out a calculator for every meal you have as a vegan, if anything you would probably be doing yourself more harm by stressing unnecessarily over the ratios of micro-nutrients that may or may not be present in each mouthful of food.

Like a couple of people here have asked, I too am sincerely curious to know what sport it is that you train for.
Last edited by Andrewc on Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:53 am

[quote="will_220"]However I still think, as most of these sources are incomplete proteins, if one is very serious about their sport, it would be beneficial to them to know what exactly is being put inside their system. Knowledge is the key to success
Well, that fails on the fact that we have no idea what would be the perfect ratios to begin with. So good luck with that.

My EAAs have the same ratios of the amino acids as human muscle (except tryptophane which they aren't allowed to sell here and which isn't party of most (?) of the studies on EAAs anyway, plus it may interfere with the BCAAs crossing the body-brain barrier and raise seratonine levels making you less focused / more tired.)

Anyway, there is nothing saying that the ratios found in human muscle is the perfect one for actually growing them.



Btw I dump quite a lot of tryptophane in my EAAs when I come home, part to fix the inbalance during my workout, part because losing focus / getting more tired isn't an issue any more and part because I work out in the evening so anything helping me to get to sleep the better.





And no, I still don't think perfect ratios is very important for someone who gets lots of protein. The body reacts most to leucine so I guess if anything plenty of leucine would be good, but I think it has been shown that whey + extra leucine and eaas + extra leucine don't give any extra boost for non-elderly people. If the ratios are all wrong but you're still consuming an excess of protein your body will just burn it off as fuel I guess. So no problem.

And still, most of the amino acids actually used in the protein synthesis are the same ones which was broken down earlier. So most protein you eat will rather be a signaling mechanism that hey, we've got amino acids to spare! rather than building blocks I guess (once again there with "I guess", but well, it's not a fact =P)
If it wasn't and the extra 100 gram of protein you ate would actually stuck to your body you'd gain like half a kilo of muscle including water content and what not. And well, people don't =P


Myostatin blocker may help =P
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Postby Andrewc » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:01 am

Will_220, I have a question for you.

As you're searching for an optimal diet I would like to know how you manage your consumption of excess sodium and cholesterol in your omnivorous diet, where you get your fibre, antioxidants or phytochemicals, or how you cope with calcium loss from excess protein consumption?

Surely this is as much as a concern for you as where you're getting your amino acids and when.
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Postby aliquis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:06 am

[quote="will_220"]As soya is very prominent in a vegan diet, i'm sure any nutritionist would consider the deficient amino acids in soya when planning a diet for a professional vegan diet.
Says who? So far today I haven't eaten any soy. As you may remember I'm out on soy protein. My protein sources have been free form amino acids, wheat, kidney beans, chickpeas and oat. Or wait, I had soy milk on the oat porridge, sorry about that =p

Also as I said we have no idea what is the perfect amino acid balance for building muscle, so we can't really say any food is deficient in them can we? We have biological value numbers but those are from rats feed on the protein measuring weight afaik. And even by then I think soy is a protein source just as good as meat for the rats. Though wheat + cow milk is even better.[quote="will_220"]What i'm trying to say is. After a grueling second workout of the day I would once consume a large (free range) steak. That thing would fill me with all the essential amino acids, all the conditionally essential acids and non essential ones too... I could go to sleep happy that my body had all it needed to repair all the hard activity of that day.. and I would be subsequently well enough to do it again the next day.
I don't care much for the non-EAAs since my body can produce them anyway, but I still get histidine, arginine, glutamine, carnitine, ..[quote="will_220"]When I turned to soya... i went to bed wondering if my body had all it needed to repair and supercompensate from all the hard work, and if i'd still have the stamina to train the next day.
I doubt you notice how good the protein balance are in how fit for fight you are the next day?[quote="will_220"]I wanted to recreate that steak with non-animal sources... but i'm beginning to think that isn't possible.
Eat humans.[quote="will_220"]For the record I no longer eat free range steak. I consume eggs (free range reputable source, RSCPA "freedom food" chicken. I am currently doing this research so i can limit the amount of animal products in my diet.

I'd rather not eat these animal products, but i'm now thinking they are more beneficial than plant sources.But so far you haven't said why? For instance soy is rich in glutamine and I also think arginine? Why do you think the animals have a better balance of the non-EAAs than plants? What does the animals eat?

Protein isn't all there is to it, as I've said before.

High protein intake and high energy intake does increase protein balance each on their own btw, so to maximize the benefits of your training you should make sure to overeat a lot to. Though that will make you fatter.
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