Contradictions / misinformation on Vegan diet

[JohnBarleycorn]

^Post of the year.

Wisdom, snappy dialogue, and a picture of some rock hard abs.

Agreed ! Great post !

Will_220, I dare say there are a fair few on here who are fitter and more muscular than you, and who train harder. And they probably aren't tearing themselves apart thinking about amino acid profiles. And remember, worry causes stress, producing cortizone, which breaks down your muscle !

I used to train for a minimum of five hours a day. Hard training. Every day. It was my life. Nobody was more serious than me. I was a full time athlete. But I ate, ate and ate. I never stopped eating, and that way, I got every amino acid I needed.

Just eat healthy wholefoods, and plenty of them, and supplement your protein if you feel you need to. And just concentrate on the training.

[Mr. Cleetus]

Protein synthesis occurs within 30 minutes of a training session. For best recoveries the body needs an abundance of amino acids ASAP (This is why it is recommended to drink PWO shakes; it replaces what you need quicker than eating foods).

This is something I have often wondered about myself and something some biochemist friends have often discussed with me. I've never brought it up here cuz I figured I'd get the response you did. Nobody seems to have addressed this particular question yet.

The responses seems to focus on that one can be a good athlete as described, of which I certainly have no doubt. That does not mean that eating in that way (i.e., not worrying about the protein amino profile immediately after training) is optimal for recovery and gains. There are always improvements to be made. And for all the references to top level athletes and pros - they are often that way despite their diet... Yes protein combining has been dismissed, but does that necessarily imply it is completely irrelevant for optimal recovery? I certainly don't know - anyway I am waaaaaaay out of my knowledge zone discussing this, but I really don't think it is quite as clear cut as everybody wants to make it when one is looking for what is optimal over simply what works.

[SpugFab]

There are always improvements to be made.

If your nutritional needs are being met that may simply not be true.

It appears to me to be quite easy to meet nutritional needs, even when training hard.

As an aside, ideas like the 30 minute window idea have been questioned recently. I've also heard research presented which makes pre-workout and peri-workout nutrition of greater importance than post-workout.

[aliquis]

Thank you for the responses

You do not need to combine amino acids to get a "complete" protein. As long as you eat a varied diet (as opposed to the same thing day in and day out), your body can grab the amino acids it needs from various places throughout the week and put them to use.

It is a debunked myth that you need to combine proteins in the same meal to obtain proper nutrition on a plant-based diet. The original author of this theory has even since retracted her position and said as much.

Researching on this site I have read this opinion many times. For most vegans I have no doubt it holds truth, but for someone taking their fitness very seriously (such as myself) obtaining a full spectrum of amino acids is essential.

It's essential for all, or you'll die, but they don't have to come in perfect ratios with each and every meal I assume.

Protein synthesis occurs within 30 minutes of a training session. For best recoveries the body needs an abundance of amino acids ASAP (This is why it is recommended to drink PWO shakes; it replaces what you need quicker than eating foods).

Well, I really hope protein synthesis happen all the time, and so does protein breakdown.

Of course it's better to get some protein down as soon as possible to start getting into a positive protein balance, but it's not the end of the world if it takes longer than 30 minutes, your protein synthesis are raised above normal levels for like 3 days or something such, after 24 hours they are still like more than 50% normal (that most likely demends on the individual and training performed, but since I doubt they haven't tested all the people in the world ...)

In any case free form essential amino acids will reach out into your blood way faster than regular protein and of course faster than a solid meal.

6 gram of essential amino acids is supposed to raise protein synthesis 2.5 times more than 20 gram of whey protein do if I remember correctly (though as a fast spike in protein balance, whey takes longer time to reach out in the body but will of course affect the balance for longer instead.)

I take 7 gram before workout, 7 gram as BCAAs during the workout and 10+ gram when I come home.

I certainly wouldn't want to get the rest of the amino acids "later in the week" as you suggested.

Neither would I, but you will have a hard time finding food which really lack some of them completely .. In a later meal is probably ok, but sure, mix grains and beans in the same meal and you're safe.

The body does not store protein, it is used within hours, so it is important for an athlete to get an abundance of the full range of amino acids in the same day.

Of course it stores it, as muscle for instance , anyway most of the protein used for building muscle is the same protein which was broken down in the form of muscle earlier. You break down like 200 gram of muscle every day, but hopefully you build up as much or more ...

Hi, protein isn't the one and only nutrient to rule them all, so I'll make it short for you:

Thank you for the detailed post.

Protein intake is still quintessential for any athlete and must be taken seriously. I have read on this forum many times people saying that protein is a "non issue" for vegans. i don't believe this is the truth; especially for athletes. When one meets their protein needs through nuts, seeds, legumes etc... it is easy to start consuming an excess of unwanted fat and carbs which are predominant in these foods.

Protein AMOUNT is an issue for a vegan athlete, protein QUALITY most likely is not. And yeah, I may fare better with more mixed meals, or atleast eat closer to eachother so some of the old amino acids may remain in my body. Of course you get lots of that, hence the bean based diet ...

dude, you are overthinking it!

Relax!

eat a varied diet, thats enough

As I said before, for optimum athletic performance A LOT of consideration must go into diet, especially if one is to cut out all dairy products.

Carl Lewis did it... but then he probably consulted with some of the worlds top nutritionists.

Carl Lewis is small, I also doubt his goal was to weight in at 100+ kgs.

[aliquis]

I was watching a video on YouTube about nutrition for people working out, and the guy also said this... the body does not store protein for long... he suggested eating five meals a day and eating some of each different type of nutrient at each meal.... first veggies, then whole grains, then protein, then fruit.

Sounds like a retard.

The food idea really sounds retarded and 5 meals a day won't matter much. Eat more = take longer time to digest = lots of energy and nutrients available = build more then, and well, starve more inbetween meals but so what.

In the long run it won't make much of a difference.

[aliquis]

There was a study about 10 years ago with gymnasts using soy protein after their training and gaining as much lean muscle as the group taking whey.

This one is really fresh:
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/reprint/00076.2009v1
J Appl Physiol. 2009 Jul 9. Ingestion of whey hydrolysate, casein, or soy protein isolate: effects on mixed muscle protein synthesis at rest and following resistance exercise in young men.

This study was designed to compare the acute response of mixed muscle protein synthesis (MPS) to rapidly (i.e., whey hydrolysate and soy) and slowly (i.e., micellar casein) digested proteins both at rest and after resistance exercise. Three groups of healthy young men (n=6 per group) performed a bout of unilateral leg resistance exercise followed by the consumption of a drink containing an equivalent content of essential amino acids (10g) as either whey hydrolysate, micellar casein, or soy protein isolate. Mixed muscle protein synthesis (MPS) was determined by a primed constant infusion of L-[ring-(13)C6]phenylalanine. Ingestion of whey protein resulted in a larger increase in blood essential amino acid, branched-chain amino acid, and leucine concentrations than either casein or soy (P<0.05). Mixed MPS at rest (determined in the non-exercised leg) was higher with ingestion of faster proteins (whey=0.091+/-0.015, soy=0.078+/-0.014, casein=0.047+/-0.008 %(.)h(-1); ); MPS after consumption of whey was ~93% greater than casein (P<0.01) and ~18% greater than soy (P=0.067). A similar result was observed after exercise (whey>soy>casein); MPS following whey consumption was ~122% greater than casein (P<0.01) and 31% greater than soy (P<0.05). MPS was also greater with soy consumption at rest (64%) and following resistance exercise (69%) compared to casein (both p<0.01). We conclude that the feeding-induced simulation of MPS in young men is greater after whey hydrolysate or soy protein consumption than casein both at rest and after resistance exercise; moreover, despite both being fast proteins whey hydrolysate stimulated MPS to a greater degree than soy after resistance exercise. These differences may be related to how quickly the proteins are digested (i.e., fast vs. slow) or possibly to small differences in leucine content of each protein.

As in, whey hydrolysate better than soy protein isolate but that on the other hand is better than micellar caseine.

They are arguing it may be because of the speed of the protein but I guess it can also be because of amino acid balance and something else.

Whey hydrolysate is pre-broken down more expensive whey.
Micellar caseine is caseine in a form found in milk, usually one remove the caseine in some form which destroys that (same method as with cheese?) and so on and get caseinate instead so I think this form of caseine is more expensive than the one you usually see in supplements to.

In any case lots of products have caseine in some form in them but it seem it fails, (it's also 80% of the protein in milk, the other 20% is whey), so I assume it may be the case that soy protein isolate would had been better than a full milk protein to, though no-one will know right now.

I think caseine hydrolysate is even faster than whey hydrolysate so it would had been nice if they had used that to to see if it was the speed or the amino acid balance which mattered the most.

Anyway EAAs beat regular whey, since whey hydrolate is faster than regular whey I don't know which would win vs EAAs.

[aliquis]

will, whats your sport and your competetive history? Not a pissing contest type of question, but a serious one.

The magazines which get majority of their revenues from supplement companies flood their readers with minute details which are largely irrelevant to athletes - even the top level ones (remember when Michael Phelps talked about what he eats?) creating the illusion that the whole issue is very complex and these companies products are standing between you and results.

Its ok if you want to go with it, plenty of people do (though for instance i train with many top level powerlifters, strongmen and weightlifters who laugh at all these details, and hardly ever take a protein shake for instance), but at least recognise that there is another side of the coin... I too used to think about these details a lot but never made as good of gains as i started to get when i stoppped worrying about it (not related directly, just change of training environment made it all happen)

Yeah, look at most powerlifters I know, they don't have a rats ass of knowledge about what they should eat and how but they aren't afraid to eat a lot and workout heavy and in the end they usually end up bigger anyway =P (in all possible ways )

[aliquis]

messed up.

[aliquis]

I blame bodybuilding for this insane focus on micronutrient breakdown. With other sports you could eat a solid, varied, clean diet, train hard and see results. You could reach the top with this approach.

lol, reminds me of the ironmag interview with a "pro", did he take supplements? No, most likely even less the latest and greatest from companies such as muscletech (omg 1187% stronger bench!...)

Did he use drugs for 50.000 $ / year or whatever it was? Yes.

I guess money spent on vitamine T gives more value than the latest "legal" pill.

Or well, I'll find it instead:
http://www.optimalbody.se/forum/artikla ... rview.html
http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2678

The State of Competitive Bodybuilding
The Most Shocking Bodybuilding Interview Ever (IRONMAN, February '97)
by Steve Holman
Warning:This is an extremely controversial interview. To be honest, we almost decided not to print it; however, because IRONMAN has always been an open forum, going to great lengths to tell the whole truth, we felt it was our responsibility to the sport and to you, the reader, to allow this athlete to speak his mind

.It took a lot of courage for this man to stand up and tell it like it is, and we are keeping him anonymous to protect his status as a professional bodybuilder. We're inserting [blanks] in place of names to help protect his identity-no process of elimination to narrow down the field-and also in place of drug names, so drug-using bodybuilders don't get any inadvertent "help" with their drug programs.

Keep in mind that we paid this man nothing because we feel money can only corrupt the information. When people are paid a high sum, they feel as if they have to give the interviewer his or her money's worth, and that can result in exaggeration.

As you read this, remember that this athlete came to us because, like us, he loves bodybuilding and wants to see it prosper, not die a painful drug-induced death.

Fasten your seatbelts. This dose of reality is going to open your eyes like nothing ever printed in this or any other bodybuilding magazine.

IM: You want to get some things off your chest. You have the bodybuilding world's ear. What is it you want to talk about?
BB: Well, you know, most of the things nobody wants to talk about. I want to let everybody know how it really is.

IM: How it is with the drugs?
BB: Damn right!

IM: You're having to take too many, correct?
BB: Way too many, man.

IM: What kind of drug bill are we talking about?
BB: Well, growth hormone alone costs you $30,000 a year.

IM: Good lord!
BB: And steroids, that's not a really big problem. I use a lot, but you can get it cheap. Mostly you gotta pay people to tell you how to use them. The growth hormone, IGF-IÉ.

IM: And just the thought of putting all that in your body all at one time-that's gotta take its toll on you mentally too.
BB: Well, I don't mind a little bit, because I do like big arms, big back, big chest and legs and everything. But when it comes to the point where I'm as big as I want to get-

IM: They tell you that you have to get bigger, right?
BB: Yeah, I don't have a choice. I'm gonna be bigger. Next year you're going to see me 24 pounds heavier.You know it's the whole mind-set that you gotta get bigger and sacrifice your shape. I may not like the way my back looks. I mean, I've got improvements to make, obviously. But those things come with time. Maturing into a physique is nice, but they want a monster.

IM: Do you think it can ever stop? I mean, if people keep getting bigger, what's going to happen to the sport?
BB: Well, the sport is already-

IM: Out of control?
BB: Yeah. It's an underground sport. It's [a cult that] likes to see the freaky mass monsters....They really don't care. They just say, Whatever it takes to do that, that's what we want to see. But I think a lot of people want to see something that's somewhat attainable.

IM: Do you think the size of the competitors has caused the people to be a little blast about it all? Like: Well, they're just going to have to do what it takes. We don't care; if they die, they die. We want to see 'em bigger, and we want to see 'em better.
BB: That's right. They want us to do it, and the judges want to see something bigger. In order for us to make a living and live our dreams, we gotta do whatever it takes, you know? You got guys like [blank, a bodybuilding columnist for another magazine] saying, "Well, nobody's making you." I guess nobody is, but a lot of us [have] this dream of being the best of the built.

IM: Absolutely. And it's a performance thing too. It's gratifying to be on stage. What do you think is a solution here? Do you think there is one at this point?
BB: Well, it's hard to say. Once you've seen extreme physique development, how are you going to train the eye of the audience to accept something less? You can practically see [some of these guys'] lungs when they do rear lat spreads. You just gotta accept something less. By the way, before I go on, let me tell you right now, there's a lot of things in your hands.

IM: I understand. Your identity is completely confidential, I promise you that. We'll just say you're a top pro. That's all.
BB: Right. Okay. Ask anything.

IM: Do you think part of the solution is for the judges to start rewarding a more aesthetic physique?
BB: That would be the only way the sport would go into a positive direction. Like Bob Paris.

IM: Right, if Bob Paris came back. I think the problem is you have to have an eye for that type of physique, and the general public and most bodybuilding fans don't have it, so they look at size as the top criterion for victory.
BB: I think there's a certain presence, an aura to a really complete physique like Lee Labrada's, rather than someone who's just grotesque.

IM: Getting back to the whole drug thing, do you have to stay on the drugs year-round?
BB: Yes. I haven't gone off at all for years.

IM: You have to inject, what, three to four times a week?
BB: Every day.

IM: Every day you have to inject something into your body?
BB: Yeah. Every day. Let me go over my stack.[He rattles off a list of injectibles and orals that's so long, my jaw hits the desk.]

IM: This is just off-season?
BB: Yeah. And of course I like to use [blank] that blocks estrogen and also increases testosterone levels. Also [blank] four times a day in the off-season to allow me to eat more calories. I also take half a tablet of [blank], which works better synergistically with growth hormone. Six weeks or so out I start taking some [blank] to stop some of the gyno. I did have to have it removed a few years back, but it kind of flares up now and then.And I use [blank] to take some of the water out. And [every so often] I switch from the heavy androgens to the lighter anabolics, like [blank and blank], 300 milligrams every other day. Let's see, [blank], 200 milligrams a day. That helps you harden up your physique, increase your vascularity. I take some [blank], which helps me harden, and I keep my insulin the same and my growth hormone the same.

IM: Whew! Quite a laundry list!
BB: Well, you know there's also many other things, like [blank], which keeps my gonadal system up and [blank] to boost my testosteone to make sure I don't atrophy down there. Also, anti-estrogens and other compound factors to combat the many side effects that I get.

IM: Have you ever noticed any serious health problems that you think are related to this?
BB: I piss a lot of blood come contest time.

IM: But in the off-season you feel pretty decent, even though you're taking all that stuff?
BB: Well, recently I started getting blood tests every two months.

IM: How about cholesterol count, blood pressure and so forth? All that's pretty normal?
BB: No, everything is high. My blood pressure gets really high, and that must be watched, especially when I take stimulants.

IM: It sounds as if you're on pins and needles a lot of the time.
BB: If you gotta do it, you got no choice. You want to make a living in this sport, that's what you gotta do.

IM: Race cars keep going faster and faster and there are more crashes, but the drivers keep doing it, right? What do you think your total drug bill is for the year?
BB: About $60,000, but it's going to be higher next year. Just this last year I had to add [blank]. Right now it's the number-one bodybuilding "supplement" in the competition ring. All these guys you see getting bigger, it's that. No question. Two years ago...I don't want to take nothing from [blank], really nice guy, nice family man, but physiquewise he was flat as a pancake. Now he's bigger, 20 to 30 pounds heavier. It's all [from this stuff]. [Blank] is heavy on it. Of course, we all are. I'm scared shitless.

IM: Are you guys pretty frank with each other about what you're taking?
BB: Only with friends. I mean, I get questions in the gym all the time, and I tell them I take [a popular protein powder]! Yeah, we talk.

IM: You don't feel you need to keep secrets and maintain an edge?
BB: There are no secrets. There's one guy out there-I won't mention his name-he's a top pro who helps out the other pros with their [blank] 'cause we don't know how to do it, so we go to him. He helps us out.

IM: I know the old-timers say there's no camaraderie in the sport anymore.
BB: Oh, there's some. But the only thing we talk about is-

IM: Drugs and training.
BB: We don't talk about training, because most of the guys-

IM: All train alike?
BB: Well, yeah. We don't train that hard. [Most of the guys] are half asleep when they [work out].

IM: So it's mostly just the drugs. The top guys really don't have an inkling how to train without them. Do you think most of the top 10 guys are taking pretty much the same thing then?
BB: Yeah, they're all jabbing themselves just as much, but I think [winning] has to do with your estrogen levels and your normal testosterone levels, your receptor abilities and things like that. You know, it's a genetic thing. Some people are more susceptible to steroids. Five milligrams might hit me differently than it might hit you.

IM: I asked you this earlier, and I know you said you think that it's just all part of the game, but aren't you afraid that this will catch up with you later in life?
BB: I am. I don't think I'll be able to have children. My doctor told me my sperm count is way too low. And my thyroid [is blown out].

IM: Do you feel that the sport indirectly promotes the whole drug thing?
BB: Yeah, but then you have people saying that nobody makes us. But this is our childhood dream. This is something we want to do, and for the most part we don't have other jobs.

IM: Do you think this drug test they had at the Olympia was a step in the right direction?
BB: It was a step in the right direction for the sport and probably a step in the wrong direction for people's careers because I know four people who [should have] tested positive. But we can beat the drug tests. Next year if they want to get diuretics, that's fine. We'll use plasmics. It's fairly simple. There's always exotic steroids."Let's change some molecule on the 17th position, and it can't be detected." [Blank] still can't be detected.

IM: This is the most eye-opening interview I've ever had. I appreciate your opening up to me.
BB: You're welcome. It could be because I'm very low on carbohydrates.

IM: And you're pissed off.
BB: Yeah, you know the diuretic scene is very difficult. I'm back there with my I.V. bag and heart monitor. It's just the situation. You take a person and put him into a lab in a freak science experiment. Then you throw him on stage, and you take him off to pump blood back into him. Is that a sport?The training is pretty much beaten to death. In fact, your magazine for the natural athletes is what I recommend. Professional bodybuilding [is about] drugs. Of course, there's abuse in every professional sport-boxing, basketball, baseball, football.

[aliquis]

IM: How long do you think you can keep at it? I mean at this pace?
BB: Well I've been on forÉoh God. I'll tell you right now, if anybody's going to die next, it's going to be [blank]. He's too old to be messing with [junk] like that. His pancreas I don't think is too good.There's a look that you get. I can see it. [Blank, a top pro] is very ill. I understand what he wants to do for the sport, and he can do some great things, but he's dying and every contest he loses is a blow to him. He's killing himself literally because he wants to make this sport better. Eventually he's either going to win the contest or he's going to die.

IM: He's really playing Russian roulette?
BB: Yeah, he was using [blank] before any of us. I prefer his look back [a few years]. He wasn't big but aesthetic-a pleasing physique. Something a kid would look at and say, Hey, I would like to look like that. Now he should be concentrating more on certain bodyparts, but instead his body is getting bigger, his stomach, his head, everything.

IM: It's a scary look. Yes, the body's getting bigger, but all the internal organs are getting large, bloated.
BB: They should have a contest for the biggest growth-hormone gut.

IM: Got anything else you want to get off your chest?
BB: Yeah, you know I have a hard time thinking because of all the things I'm on now. But they don't talk about how much drug [abuse] there is. And it's not just the steroids. We've got to use speed and stuff like that. We have to use a lot of diuretics, things that aren't too healthy, and they don't feel good. Lots of guys are using cocaine-not just because they like it, but it helps you get cut up, it helps you not eat.With drugs there's use and abuse. But at our level I feel we're getting exploited, you know? They pump us full of drugs...or we pump ourselves full of drugs to make ourselves look like freaks, and we get on stage and that's our job. But we don't get paid hardly anything. The guy who uses our pictures, the supplement companies, make all the money, and they don't give us nothing. If it wasn't for our picture, they wouldn't have nothing to promote.

IM: Yeah, and you gotta keep risking your life to try to make a few bucks winning a show.
BB: I'll tell you what: [Some] of the guys, like [blank], are gay prostitutes.

IM: Think so?
BB: I know so. That's how they can afford all those drugs. That's definite. Of course [certain people in] the gay community are going to walk up and say, Hey, we'll give you so much to have sex. That's just like a straight guy walking up to Cindy Crawford and saying it. But for us it's a way to make a good $10,000 a month. It helps with our drug bill and sometimes they just give us drugs for the act.

IM: When you think about it, you guys can't make much money.
BB: There's not much money in the contracts. Especially with the drugs, the living, the food. You have to sacrifice your-

IM: Integrity?
BB: Yeah, your integrity, your pride. It's all a sacrifice. The drugs, the prostitution. These guys don't want to do that. They have to look in the mirror. They know they're sacrificing what makes them a man.And all this crap you see about carb loading and sodium. Bunch of shit.

IM: So you don't think they actually do sodium loading? It's all just drugs?
BB: Precontest every once in a while you catch a guy in McDonald's or eating pizza. You can do that kind of thing-of course, in moderation.

IM: But you're a pretty heavy supplement user?
BB: I don't use supplements at all! No vitamins, nothing.IM: You don't think that vitamins and minerals would help protect you somewhat from all the drugs?BB: Yeah, but-

IM: You've got put your money where it's going to be the most effective, right? On drugs.
BB: Right. I'd like to see a $1 million prize [for a bodybuilding contest]. That's something else that would help the sport. If there's a decent amount of money in there, it would be something people would watch. Unfortunately, I think people want to see the freaks at this point. Really big mothers up there. It's like you said, you really can't go backwards. I guess you have to let [it] self-destruct and see what happens.

IM: I don't want to see any of you guys die.
BB: We will. I guarantee you. You're going to see lots of guys dying in the next few years.

IM: I hope the drug test is a step in the right direction, and maybe they'll start judging for more aesthetic physiques. If they did backtrack to more of the Bob Paris look, I think it would help.
BB: Is that ever going to happen?IM: How much longer do you think you're going to go on with it?BB: Till I reach my goal. Or it beats me.

IM: Have you ever experienced any kind of depression or rage?
BB: Oh, yeah. Beaten many peopleÉgot out of hand. I feel bad about that.

IM: Having all that coursing through your system has to do something to you mentally.
BB: Well, besides that, you feel a lump here, and you feel scared, and you don't know what's going on.

IM: Do you get checked by a doctor regularly?
BB: I get the blood tests, and he reads it. It's foreign to me. I just ask how much longer do I have to live, what am I doing wrong?

IM: But he doesn't do any MRIs on you? It's just basically a blood test?
BB: No. He checks my thyroid, sperm count. Of course, I'm never going to be able to have children.

IM: Perhaps some of this will reverse itself once you-
BB: No, I have irreversible damage.

IM: That's really sad.
BB: I think it happened last year. When I upped everything, I shut my thyroid down. And if I go off the [blank], I'm going to get fat. I'm going to stay on the stuff permanently. If I go off, I'm going to rebound. None of these guys go off. It's just nonstop. These guys do what it takes.Don't you see that they're exploiting us? They're selling us. They're pumping us up, putting us on stage, throwing us off, and they're collecting the money. And we're back there rolling around in death.In the process they will make money. Sell ourselves. Sell our souls, and we don't get much. And even if you take the drugs, it's no guarantee you're going to win. You have to have something going on there. But [the people who run this sport] say, Keep it going, keep it going. And watch their wallets getting bigger. They don't care.

IM: But you did say looking like that helps you with women?
BB: That makes it a little worthwhile, but I never had any problem with the bitches. I got plenty before. Now I'm bigger, so I get a lot more. But you also get the bad-that includes harassment from the homos.I want to say for the guys who want to take their physiques to a [higher level], weight training, eating right and exercising will help you achieve your goals. What's big to you may be small compared to a pro, but like I said, Lee Labrada will look huge to a lot of guys. So you can attain your goals, get bigger, get better with the women, look good. You may not win Mr. Olympia, but you can still have something to be proud of [without the drugs].[Competitive bodybuilding, for the most part] is all chemistry. It's chemical warfare. Andreas Munzer had something we never had. All those striations and [blank] drugs, but look what it did to him. He died by the sword. And [blank] pocketed everything Andreas ever did.We have to deal with the rat race and the counterfeit steroids. All these guys saying, Yeah, I fell down and broke my arm. That's not true. That's the dealer breaking their arms because they didn't pay for their shipment of growth hormone.

IM: You say you go to Mexico for a lot of this stuff?
BB: Yeah, I go to Mexico. The European tour is where most of us get our drugs.[Switches subjects again] You don't need drug testing. Just a Lee Labrada. It didn't take a ton [of drugs] to do that. Pick that, and there you go. All the other guys will have to trim down to look like that.

IM: Go for the aesthetic physique. That's one of the big steps they have to take. By the way, isn't there a drug that you can inject directly into the muscle to blow it up?
BB: Oh, yeah, [blank]. Use that for my peak on my biceps. [Blank] uses it everywhere-80 to 100 shots. Tell you right now it hurts like hell. But it's hard to predict. It may look good five days before the show, then it lumps out and you'll get guys with the real lumpy, weird-looking biceps.This whole sport is about being a bitch. You gotta be a bitch to pay your bills. You gotta be a bitch to win. That's what it's all about. Total exploitation. I'd like the athletes to make a little more money. All these magazines talk about how much Michael Jordan and Mike Tyson make. They don't talk about how much we make, 'cause it's disgraceful. What am I going to do? Sell pictures of myself?

IM: Do a lot of the guys sell drugs on the side?
BB: Oh, yeah. I've done that myself. Now it's a lot harder.

IM: So what else? Is there's anything you can think of that you're really pissed off about.
BB: Well, I'm pissed off that we have to use this amount of drugs. I was happier with my physique last year. [They want us] in the 270-pound range.

IM: Don't you think the magazines are a little at fault too?
BB: Yeah, they are. They don't print nothing about the drug regimen. They're selling fake dreams to kids: Take this protein powder, and you're going to look like that. And it ain't true. Drugs play a predominant role, and most of the [champions'] training articles lead to overtraining. You know that. And unless you're on steroids, you're going to end up unhappy and lose your dream.

IM: I guess it's a vicious cycle.
BB: The insulin's very dangerous. I'm feeling it right now. I'm getting real tired, headaches, weakness. I breathe hard. Not a good drug to take.

IM: What's the danger with the insulin? It's a hormone, so what's the big problem?
BB: You can die right there. I mean, there isn't one of us who hasn't been in shock. You really don't know.

IM: Have you ever had to go to the hospital because of it?
BB: I've been in the hospital a few times, yeah. They had to use half a bag of glucose intravenously to keep me going. I didn't have any glucose in my liver, because I did too much insulin. My brain was starved, and I was beginning to fall asleep, go into a coma. It's the most painful feeling you'll ever feel. During that time your mind's going nuts.What am I getting out of all this? A cover picture? That won't pay the bills. Maybe they should start giving back to the athletes instead of taking. If they're gonna make it where we have to be bigger, we should get something out of it. Golfers make more money than we do. I saw how much they make at these rodeos too. They collect $50,000 for riding some damn bull. They don't have to take drugs to do that.

IM: The danger's there for eight seconds, then they're out of there. You guys have danger all year long.
BB: Yeah it's dangerous.

IM: To say the least.

[aliquis]

All this could be solved in the first instance if the magazines had a shred of honesty and pointed out that their models were on bucketloads of steroids and took liberties with their health that no fitness trainer would even consider.

That and they work out so they can FEEL their muscles work and go high-rep for more details.

[aliquis]

Protein synthesis occurs within 30 minutes of a training session. For best recoveries the body needs an abundance of amino acids ASAP (This is why it is recommended to drink PWO shakes; it replaces what you need quicker than eating foods).

This is something I have often wondered about myself and something some biochemist friends have often discussed with me. I've never brought it up here cuz I figured I'd get the response you did. Nobody seems to have addressed this particular question yet.

The responses seems to focus on that one can be a good athlete as described, of which I certainly have no doubt. That does not mean that eating in that way (i.e., not worrying about the protein amino profile immediately after training) is optimal for recovery and gains. There are always improvements to be made. And for all the references to top level athletes and pros - they are often that way despite their diet... Yes protein combining has been dismissed, but does that necessarily imply it is completely irrelevant for optimal recovery? I certainly don't know - anyway I am waaaaaaay out of my knowledge zone discussing this, but I really don't think it is quite as clear cut as everybody wants to make it when one is looking for what is optimal over simply what works.

Of course you should get something down as soon as possible after training, but all the "3 hour nutritional window of opportunity" bullcrap is most likely false, but you don't sell that much protein supplements if you tell people that "it's important that you eat enough protein during the following days, 2 gram / kg and day will be enough and most people get that from their normal diet."

And if you really think it's important go on an intermittent fasting diet where you consume all your calories the hours around your training to make maximum usage of any extra opportunities on where the energy is used and speed up your recovery as much as possible.

[aliquis]

I've also heard research presented which makes pre-workout and peri-workout nutrition of greater importance than post-workout.

Yeah, EAAs before workout is supposed to be better than after workout, I think the same is true for whey protein to even though it's slower so the response will not be as good.

I used to take more than half a scoop of my supplement there 1 = 12-14 gram or so but since I take purple wraath now and 1 scoop = 7 gram EAAs and it's rather expensive that's all I take... But since I also do Xtend during workouts and get more cheaper EAAs when I come home I don't worry =p

May be the case that say 14 gram before and less after would be even better though, but I want the more tasty stuff during my workout since if nothing else it makes the workout more enjoyable.

Sipping on something nice while you rest is underrated =P

[Andrewc]

will, whats your sport and your competetive history? Not a pissing contest type of question, but a serious one.

The magazines which get majority of their revenues from supplement companies flood their readers with minute details which are largely irrelevant to athletes - even the top level ones (remember when Michael Phelps talked about what he eats?) creating the illusion that the whole issue is very complex and these companies products are standing between you and results.

Its ok if you want to go with it, plenty of people do (though for instance i train with many top level powerlifters, strongmen and weightlifters who laugh at all these details, and hardly ever take a protein shake for instance), but at least recognise that there is another side of the coin... I too used to think about these details a lot but never made as good of gains as i started to get when i stoppped worrying about it (not related directly, just change of training environment made it all happen)

Yeah, look at most powerlifters I know, they don't have a rats ass of knowledge about what they should eat and how but they aren't afraid to eat a lot and workout heavy and in the end they usually end up bigger anyway =P (in all possible ways )

Since training under Wilks one thing that I've discovered is that not all powerlifters are 125+ SHW lifters. At our club we have guys who are ripped and lifting in the 67.5kgs class to a few 120kgs+ members, some of these guys are national record holders in their divisions, and a couple will be competing in the IPF Junior Worlds in Brazil next month and the Worlds in India later this year. I'm not advocating their omnivorous diets, but a lot of them have do have their diets straight and know what they're eating. So with that being said I'm not sure what kind of lifters you're basing this assumption off.

[JP]

but a lot of them have do have their diets straight and know what they're eating. So with that being said I'm not sure what kind of lifters you're basing this assumption off.

i think thats not the issue. Like spug said in his EPIC post, athletes have a "solid" diet, of varied balanced diet - but there is a qualititive difference to the obsessive attitude to the nutritional minutae that bodybuilding magazines advicate (for commercial reasons).

But in general, people in heavier weight classes, or people with huge calorie demands (like runners, long distance cyclists, swimmers) cover all that detail info by the sheer volume of food they eat.