So u think high prot intake is important to build muscless!?

[ninearms]

I dunno - where does the power from a sprint come from? It's certainly not depending on my aerobic engine.

There are lots of ways your sprint time could improve without an increase in muscle mass. If the only way to improve your sprint time was to gain more muscle we'd have 230lb sprinters by now.

POWER = STRENGTH x SPEED

There are two main ways to get stronger: gain more muscle and thus have more muscle fibres at your disposal (although more muscle doesn't necessarily equate to more strength - you still need the neurological adaptation to be able to use that muscle effectively), or become more efficient at activating more muscle fibres. You can also become more efficient at utilising the muscle you already have in a faster manner, hence why 100/200/400m runners do the Olympic lifts.

Have your sprinting mechanics not improved? How have your split times changed? Are you just hitting a higher top speed, or are you able to maintain a similar top speed over a greater period of time? Has nothing else changed in your training? There are all these, plus other variables, yet you seem to think it's all because you've gained muscle, a claim which you have admitted elsewhere you can't actually substantiate.

If i were lifting, i'd be doing PB's regularly. Would that really be occurring if i were deficient in protein?

Pure speculation based on extrapolating performance in one sport onto performance in another totally unrelated sport. This would not happen: max effort lifts are far too taxing on the CNS to keep doing week after week. How did Lance Armstrong do as a marathon runner again? Oh yeah, he was pretty average and said it was way harder than the TDF.

[puppydog]

I dunno - where does the power from a sprint come from? It's certainly not depending on my aerobic engine.

There are lots of ways your sprint time could improve without an increase in muscle mass. If the only way to improve your sprint time was to gain more muscle we'd have 230lb sprinters by now.

just curious DN if your bodyweight has changed at all recently? if you've maintained the same amount of muscle but lost fat, it's going to be easier to sprint sicne theload (your body) you carry is lighter.

for me, dropping 20 pounds of what i'm pretty sure was fat certainly made running up hills and doing chinups easier.

that said, i see guys who are construction wokers and well muscled that eat crap and drink beer on their lunch. When i was working manual labour i became stronger and more muscled, and my diet wasn't exactly well thought out or protein rich.

pure track sprinters are usually a lot more well muscled than the average TDF rider. I'm assuming they do weightlifting to get there, or else their upper bodies wouldn't be so buff.

[ridley]

Several studies have shown positive effects of higher protein intake for strength athletes. I dont know anything about endurance athletes, but for honestys sake it has to be said that Dave Noisy has not produced any other evidence apart from anecdotal and some guru advice to back up his really low protein intake experiment.

Check out this report from the World Health Organization called Protein and Amino Acid Requirements in Human Nutrition (note: large PDF). They recommend an intake of .66g/kg/day for adults, which includes a buffer, and found no difference in a weightlifter's ability to build muscle or increase in strength when switching to that level from one several times higher. Infants' mass increases much faster than any older human could ever hope for and they only need about 1.01g/kg.

I'm certainly not telling you that you need to change up what you're doing since it's working well for you, but Dave definitely has more than gurus on his side here. Personally I don't take in much more protein with my diet than he does, and I'm improving athletically and currently going through a growth spurt. My level of intake is a bit higher some days because I happen to eat more overall, but I don't feel tempted to take it up there permanently.

Just thought I'd chime in on this...

[Dave Noisy]

Thanks Ridley! I've been telling people this info, but they don't seem to believe me, or the idea that massive amounts of protein are unnecessary..

ninearms - my sprinting mechanics are unlikely to have improved significantly. I'm hitting higher top speeds and holding higher speeds.

My point is not that i'm not gaining muscle, my point is that i don't need to be consuming much protein to achieve this.

My analogy on PB's was if i were lifting instead of cycling. I've got a wattage meter on my bike, which measures precisely how much power i can put into my pedals, so i'm not playing a guessing game here.. That, and improved sprint times, and improved performances against opponents.

omar tan - body weight much the same, perhaps have gained a wee bit, my legs are looking bigger.

And yes, track sprinters almost always lift, but i'm not a track sprinter, i'm an endurance racer who has a fairly solid sprint. ;)

[andrewpea]

Hi, I'm a relatively new vegan too. I've been trying to figure out this question as well and from what I've gathered:

The main issue with protein is not the total amount you eat, but that you get good range of proteins in your diet.

Protein is just a generic name for a collection amino acids, about 12 of which are essential for a balanced diet. Many vegan protein sources are missing a least one of these molecules so it is a good idea to get your protein from a range of sources.

A food that contains all 12 is called a 'complete protein', these include things like soya, quinoa, hemp (and eggs and chicken on the non-vegan side). In theory you could get all your protein needs from these sources, but it would be a bit boring and probably not healthy in other ways.

Remember when quoting of figure like X g of protein per Kg of bodyweight that there are a lot of other factors, such as general health, vitamin and mineral intake that will limit your absorbtion of protein.

Perhaps Dave is only eating 0.6g/kg quality protein but his body is able to absorb all of it. Whereas a body-builder with a poorer general diet is only able to absorb 30% of the protein he/she eats so needs to consume 2g/kg.

Wikipedia to the rescure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid

[JohnBarleycorn]

Hi, I'm a relatively new vegan too. I've been trying to figure out this question as well and from what I've gathered:

The main issue with protein is not the total amount you eat, but that you get good range of proteins in your diet.

Protein is just a generic name for a collection amino acids, about 12 of which are essential for a balanced diet. Many vegan protein sources are missing a least one of these molecules so it is a good idea to get your protein from a range of sources.

A food that contains all 12 is called a 'complete protein', these include things like soya, quinoa, hemp (and eggs and chicken on the non-vegan side). In theory you could get all your protein needs from these sources, but it would be a bit boring and probably not healthy in other ways.

Remember when quoting of figure like X g of protein per Kg of bodyweight that there are a lot of other factors, such as general health, vitamin and mineral intake that will limit your absorbtion of protein.

Perhaps Dave is only eating 0.6g/kg quality protein but his body is able to absorb all of it. Whereas a body-builder with a poorer general diet is only able to absorb 30% of the protein he/she eats so needs to consume 2g/kg.

Wikipedia to the rescure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid

Some good points, there !

[RICCO]

30% of 2g is 0.6g

fantastic!!

that moves the focus on sources
and type of diet and body health

quality makes it different

fruits and vetables are so nice source
because I guess very balanced in vitamines and minerals too, and all they give.

[ninearms]

I give up. It's like trying to reason with Jehovah's Witnesses.

[RICCO]

I give up. It's like trying to reason with Jehovah's Witnesses.

I think reason doesn't matter
there is no challenge for the reason

it is a puzzle to complete

I'd say it in religion too


ciao

[SpugFab]

i'm not playing a guessing game here..

Neither is JP. Weights have weights written on the side. He knows exactly what he is lifting. His sprint times MUST be getting faster.

Seriously though, if you haven't added bodyweight why would you advocate your diet as suitable for building muscle?

What's the protein ratio in Vega?

[Mr. Cleetus]

Infants' mass increases much faster than any older human could ever hope for and they only need about 1.01g/kg.

I've seen this one brought up a few times now. Unfortunately what it is missing is that infants are much more efficient at absorbing protein than adults, so an infant uses much more of that 1.01g/kg than an adult would.

Not all protein related studies are funded by nutrition companies, and not all scientists are biased... (just preempting that one...)

[RICCO]

that could means that most of the prots we eat just poison are bodys
since we can't assorbe all of them because of alot of reasons.



I just guess!!

[Dave Noisy]

I give up. It's like trying to reason with Jehovah's Witnesses.

How is what you're saying any different?

Only difference is that i'm having quantifiable results, despite it being impossible (according to some.)

[Mr. Cleetus]

I give up. It's like trying to reason with Jehovah's Witnesses.

How is what you're saying any different?

Only difference is that i'm having quantifiable results, despite it being impossible (according to some.)

w/o rereading this entire thing, I think the problem is you two have two slightly different hypothesis. Yes, you have some quantifiable results Dave, but as was explained above, you cannot possibly attribute these to anything in particular. You can also not say that having an increased protein intake would not have given you greater gains, which is the hypothesis that most are interested in; does increased protein intake increase performance. What you could maybe refute with a little work, is hypothesis 2: that a low protein intake makes it impossible to make gains. I dont think that is the hypothesis that most of are interested in.

[RICCO]

I'm worried everyone wants to listen to what they want!

me too

expectation!!