Is aliveness essential to MA?

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Is aliveness essential to MA?

Yes
1
20%
No
1
20%
Not sure
3
60%
 
Total votes : 5

Is aliveness essential to MA?

Postby october_lost » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:36 pm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6738846126

Kata, forms, drills are counter-productive to the actual experience to learning how to fight/self-defense?
We touched on this in a previous thread about street fighting, while I get the point that experience as to be real and on the terms its suppossed to be used for, equating non-alive forms as useless does strike me as correct.

Also if somebody things alive forms are essential, then how do you assess TKD, WC, Aikido?

Any one elses thoughts..
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Re: Is aliveness essential to MA?

Postby tempehmomma » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:47 pm

october_lost wrote:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4838722756738846126

Kata, forms, drills are counter-productive to the actual experience to learning how to fight/self-defense?
We touched on this in a previous thread about street fighting, while I get the point that experience as to be real and on the terms its suppossed to be used for, equating non-alive forms as useless does strike me as correct.

Also if somebody things alive forms are essential, then how do you assess TKD, WC, Aikido?

Any one elses thoughts..

I do not have time to watch a 13 minute video clip. I will assess the MA you have listed from my personal knowledge. TKD there are so many diferent styles I do not know where to begin. I had a freind who traned in TKD and he said he mostly practiced grappling. :? Any style of TKD that teaches primarily kicks 70 to 90% of the time will not work for the average person on the streets. Althought I do know some TKD practioners who can kick some arse on the streets if they had to. Many TKD instructors incorporate techniques from other MA or boxing and practice more elbow and knee strikes than others and add strikes to the knee and groin. Side Bar: The reason why some grand masters create their own style is because They have a family to feed. T.O. NFL wide receiver.
Aikido could be improved as far as street effectiveness if more live traning was incorporated into the practice of the art. But that was not the intention of the founder. Many MA are following the tradition invisioned by their grand master out of respect. The same is true with Japanese Juijitsu. Some traditional grappling MA teach live training primarily when a student gets more advanced, which as a training method I disagree with. Start live training from day one IMO. MA that teach point sparring will teach continuious (missplelled) sparring when students get more advanced because some students will not return after getting their ass kick after a few months of fighting full contact. I cannot comment on WC because I do not know much about it, but I had a friend who trained in WC for only 6 months because he said there are only so many different ways you can learn how to punch someone in the throat. :lol: I may have posted this next statement on another thread, but how effective an MA depends on the individual practitioner as far as how often they train and practice. And lets face it some guys/gals cannot fight as well as others no matter how hard they train. :lol: Also, it is important to find the right instructor. Just like with anything else, some people are good at doing something but not good at teaching. Some of the best boxers and sports coaches/trainers were never world class athletes. I know I am pointing out the obvious but people starting these threads on every other online forum. I think every individual has to come to their own conclusion as to which MA is appropriate for them.
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Postby october_lost » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:21 pm

tempehmma, the gist of the video can be obtained from just a few minutes viewing. Matt Thornton is basically saying that kata, drills etc are counter productive to actually fighting. Only by practising alive against a resistive opponent can you develop and evolve, and 'dead' practice is isolated and doesnt prepare the student.

I can accept some of this, but I have a number of problems,
1. Kata and drills are actually a product of someones actual fighting experience, how else do we practice solo?
2. How do you practice 'alive' movements which would severly injure students?
3. Alive fighting doesnt necessitate giving you a theory to evolve from.

Aikido could be improved as far as street effectiveness if more live traning was incorporated into the practice of the art.

90-80% of Aikido is atemi, movements put alot of tension on wrists and resistant oppoents actually makes the move more dangerous because tension is generated in the muscles. I can see only highly developed Aikidoka practicing alive, but otherwise more sparring would help the art.

As for TKD, it incorporates alot of alive practice (sport), but most of the practicioners Ive come across are nothing short of awful.
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Postby tempehmomma » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:02 pm

october_lost wrote:tempehmma, the gist of the video can be obtained from just a few minutes viewing. Matt Thornton is basically saying that kata, drills etc are counter productive to actually fighting. Only by practising alive against a resistive opponent can you develop and evolve, and 'dead' practice is isolated and doesnt prepare the student.

I can accept some of this, but I have a number of problems,
1. Kata and drills are actually a product of someones actual fighting experience, how else do we practice solo?
2. How do you practice 'alive' movements which would severly injure students?
3. Alive fighting doesnt necessitate giving you a theory to evolve from.

Aikido could be improved as far as street effectiveness if more live traning was incorporated into the practice of the art.



90-80% of Aikido is atemi, movements put alot of tension on wrists and resistant oppoents actually makes the move more dangerous because tension is generated in the muscles. I can see only highly developed Aikidoka practicing alive, but otherwise more sparring would help the art.

As for TKD, it incorporates alot of alive practice (sport), but most of the practicioners Ive come across are nothing short of awful.

The clip is 13 minutes and 7 seconds long.
1. A person can practice striking solo with a heavy bag at home or shadow kickboxing. Practicing grappling solo would be difficult, so find a training partner. I never said that kata is useless, I am simply saying that most martial artists that I know who train in an MA where there is less emphasis on kata can take care of themselves in a street fight as well as anyone. Practicing Kata often is probably necessary for training in some MA.
2. Which "alive" movements can't you practice without injuring a student. Most of MA experience is with krag maga, muay thai, BJJ, and judo. punches, elbow/knee strikes, kicks to knee, groin, chokes, arm locks, wrist, elbow, shoulder, leg locks, ankle, knee, throws, takedowns. Even practicing strikes techniques using finger punches, knife hand, ridge hand, hammer fist, palm strikes can be practiced solo. In WC they use the wooden dummy. I do not know what it is called. Some martial artist I know condition there finger tips and knife hand using a wooden or hard plastic cutting board from their kitchen. So I ask again, which "alive" movements can't you practice without injuring a student.
4. As far as Aikido, I think I mentioned that I am not as knowledgeable about Aikido as other MA. I have watched some classes and they practice break falling for much of the class. I will research the art more. There is theory behind the concepts of judo. Read Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano. I will watch the entire video right now and post my comments.

Peace brother.
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Postby tempehmomma » Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:25 pm

October:
I watched the entire video clip. I agree with what much of what Matt says.
I just want to throw in my 2 cents about training with a Gi. I think that most grappling training should be done without a Gi. What if a person or their attacker is wearing a t-shirt or a "wife beater" shirt. I think submission wrestling would better prepare someone for streetfighting than a reliance on Gi training. I have seen smaller guys who are excellent grapplers when they train with a Gi, but as soon as they spar against a big guy in class without their Gi they look lost. :lol:
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Postby mango » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:40 am

dearie
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Postby october_lost » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:43 pm

Cheers, Mango, I can cover some of the ground you have mentioned with some of the arts Im studying, but at the end of the day while we may benefit mentally, if you spend several months/years training in a martial art and you cant defend yourself against some thug is it all worth it?
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Postby tempehmomma » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:09 pm

october_lost wrote:Cheers, Mango, I can cover some of the ground you have mentioned with some of the arts Im studying, but at the end of the day while we may benefit mentally, if you spend several months/years training in a martial art and you cant defend yourself against some thug is it all worth it?

October:
You hit the nail on the head. It is not worth it IMO. Cheers mate. :lol:
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Postby mango » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:08 pm

me
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Postby Zaii » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:16 am

Well basically it comes down to what you want.

If you're taking a martial art for the aesthetic, or general fitness, or whatever, and you're honest about that, then all that stuff may or may not apply.

If you're actually trying to learn how to fight, aliveness is key.
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Postby GenTDuke » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:41 am

I would say, application i.e. Alivness is very important from a Martialist perspective not a Martial Artists perspective: they are two different things. I have gone from MA to Martialist, I mainly practice technique on people now.

tempehmma made a good point about shadow kickboxing or striking objects, shadow boxing is all about visualisation of striking an opponent so in essence it is alive, but not nesicarily as valid as actual contact. But obviusley you cant train with a partner all the time. Spear-handing watermelons is another I like.
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Postby Fudgam » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:31 am

If shadow boxing is aliveness, then so is kata and forms (I disagree). In no way is it training. It may be good for warming up or getting psyched up real quick before competion, but it is definately not legit training.

If your training is primarily katas or "forms", then you are wasting your time. They are not effective.


I totally agree with the video.
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Postby tempehmomma » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:49 am

Fudgam wrote:If shadow boxing is aliveness, then so is kata and forms (I disagree). In no way is it training. It may be good for warming up or getting psyched up real quick before competion, but it is definately not legit training.

I cannot disagree with you more. When a person is doing kata "forms" they are doing the same techniques in the same pattern every time for each kata a martial artist knows. When a person is shadowkickboxing you can create as many different combinations with punches, elbows, knees, kicks as you can think of. And you can move around to prepare to block, punches, elbows, knees, kicks or slip punches from any angle at anytime during shadowkickboxing practice. I could not disagree with you more.
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Postby GenTDuke » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:30 am

Like the man said, Kata is static and Shadow boxing Dynamic. It is only technicly alive though not literaly... infact I geuss it isnt alive.
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Postby Zaii » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:02 am

GenTDuke wrote:Spear-handing watermelons is another I like.


Eh?
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