self-defense/weapons self-defense

[jovial_nihilist]

'ello..


I was just wondering what all your opinions are on self-defense and weapon self-defense (defending yourself from them not with them), how/if it should be taught in regular martial art classes, and what level it should be taught at.


This is how it goes at my dojo:
My dojo starts self-defense at yellowbelt with really basic stuff that you'll never use because no one on the street will EVER set in a seisan stance to punch you. REAL self-defence doesn't start happening until about purple belt, and then that knowledge kicks in at brown. At brown and black belt level we do a "circle of self defense" where anyone can attack you (or multiple people) using whatever they want, and you must defend yourself.

Also at brown belt, it is part of the requirement to advance that you come up with your own self-defense techniques against certain attacks or from certain positions (ex: you must create 3 against an attack while you're seated, 3 if someone comes from behind, 3 from on the ground, and 3 from a grab of any kind).


We don't do as much weapon self-defense as we used to.. It's done only every once in a while in more advanced classes and at special semianrs.
Anyway, this is how we teach it when we do: First, one of the senseis will demonstrate how to identify that the person has a knife, because if you're facing someone who knows how to handle one, you probably won't see the blade. You'll notice that knife strikes each have very distinct differences in the arm movement from any kind of punch. To defend yourself, you're first priority must be controlling the weapon. So basically, what you'll do is attack the person's bicept and trap it. From there, if the attacker still has the weapon, you can strike to the neck, headbut, kick the knee, etc. Once you've weakened them or they've dropped the weapon, you sweep them so they fall. If they already dropped the weapon, then you just take them down because further attack after the threat is gone could get you in trouble.

[GenTDuke]

'ello..


I was just wondering what all your opinions are on self-defense and weapon self-defense (defending yourself from them not with them), how/if it should be taught in regular martial art classes, and what level it should be taught at...

At brown and black belt level we do a "circle of self defense" where anyone can attack you (or multiple people) using whatever they want, and you must defend yourself.

Also at brown belt, it is part of the requirement to advance that you come up with your own self-defense techniques against certain attacks or from certain positions (ex: you must create 3 against an attack while you're seated, 3 if someone comes from behind, 3 from on the ground, and 3 from a grab of any kind).

.

Hey mate, we only teach these techniques at second brown as at any point before that you dont have enough of the basics, we teach application of basic techniques in these situation but no reversals or counter strikes until brown 2, but this is due to the fact that normaly the lower students are young and have trouble grasping these techniques, adult novice classes can encorperate basic anti weapon reversals with the more advanced ones being taught only after these have been masterd, adults have a greater motivation and ability to learn these techniques due to there understandings of the harsh realities of life.

We have a circle of defence drill as well, we only use it with very basic devastating and quick jui jitsu or Karate techniques in order to maximise the amount of people combated in the shortist period of time; for the extra pycological edge of your oponents. Techniques we learn for practical purposes inlude eye, throut, zypoid process (the bit that hold your abs, and can potential collapse an oponent due to total loss of core stability) jabs, as well as open or ridge hand strikes to the connective tendons and ligments, leg stikes through the knee, into the groin, knee strikes to the chest and finaly grappling / jui jitsu which is the primary method due to the fact it is a safer bet. All finish with a floor takedown unless multipull oponents are present in which case potentialy deadly force is used.

[jovial_nihilist]

woah.. can you explain your belt system?


(mine goes: white-> advanced white->yellow-> orange ->green-> blue -> purple-> brown->black)

[GenTDuke]

woah.. can you explain your belt system?


(mine goes: white-> advanced white->yellow-> orange ->green-> blue -> purple-> brown->black)

7th to 1st kyu

white, red, yellow, orange, green, purple (brown 1), brown 2, Brown 3 then black belt Dan grades

[pandiriver]

hmmm.. well, I practice Leung Ting Wing Tsun and Escrima Concepts. both are self defense systems... first thing we were taught in WT was our "universal solution" for self defense situations, that is pretty much what the whole first WT grade is about anyhow. After that it just goes on getting more advanced and being more offensive I guess. It all is of course very much based on being a practical and useable self defense system.

now the escrima concepts is mostly about sticks and "other weapons" (palmsticks, fists, knives, bottles, pens, shoes, or anything). It is, like the WT system, concept based and has a very solid thinking behind it and is very workable and aims at keeping yourself safe at all time. in Escrima concept we always presume that an opponents hand that we can't see is a hand he carries a weapon in and we have to act accordingly. Taking control of the situation and the opponent with some appropriate technique.
the "basic" disarm is of course to whack someone in the head with a hickory stick trying grabs and things is very tricky with people who know how weapons work =( we are taught disarms for emergency use if we ever get jumped by some fool who doesn't know how to use his weapon of choise but we are also taught the basic truth about disarms ("they don't f..king work")


WT and EC is all about control and keeping yourself as safe as possible, and are very self defense orientated systems.

it is interesting to hear that your "circle of self defense" starts at brown belt jovial! =D we start doing that after maybe a week or two of WT training! We have something similar in EC too, one guy is charged buy 3 or 4 stick/knife carrying attackers. very good training , makes you think of how to react !

[wannalift]

i almost bought this kick ass knife that was pretty much a perfect replica of a tiger claw. then i realized i would have to fly it back to pennsylvania with me. buggar
~david

[Mary]

I suppose you could say it actually was a tiger claw - or maybe a religious artefact...

Shame!

[Mary]

(Though whoever searched your bags mightn't trust that one, cause what would a vegan be doing with a tiger claw anyway? And we all know you can tell us vegans to look at, as we are all so scrawny! )

[Niranjana]

I have two aspects to comment on in this regard.

Firstly, as per my Wing Chun and Escrima training, I feel Pandriver has already said what is necessary.

Secondly, as a Sikh, weapons -all steel (sarabloh)- are of paramount importance to our way of life, we uphold both the Sikh Scriptures (the Guru Granth Sahib) and the weapons (shasters) as our Guru, or Shabd-Guru and Shaster-Guru, respectively.

In conclusion, whatever your take on weapons, the bottom line is that when it comes to combat, unarmed techniques in reality only supplement the armed, for the typical aggresor is a weak person who will attack you when it is in their advantage -this could be through them having more people, being armed or both.

Either way, when confronted with this situation, it makes little sense for you to rely solely on unarmed techniques when outnumberd and faced with armed aggressors.

Finally, as Sikh, for me personally, weapons are a manisfestion of the power of the Infinite Timeless One (Akal) and hence a huge responsibility, in the words of Nanak Dev Singh Nihang:-

Weapons have a special place where they are stored and presented. They are approached with respect and bowed to as if they were a living thing. It is believed that these weapons came directly from God and they are manifestations of God's power on earth. Thus the power of God has been put into the hands of man. This is a huge responsibility and something which is easily abused even with the best intentions in mind.

The sword has been for centuries revered by man as a symbol of his power. It was not until the Sikh Guru Hargobind that a deeper understanding of this was revealed. He taught that the sword was a symbol of both temporal and spiritual power. Later Guru Gobind Singh defined this further by describing " God fashioned the entire universe with his sword". For this reason the sword is seen as the primal force of the universe.

The Akali Nihang Singhs (Sikh Warriors) worship the sword as a manifestation of God's power...the energy of the sword is called Shakti...at the moment of creation the Creator was in a profound state of meditation. Every particle of the universe was shaped by this meditation through the sword. By allowing the Sword Meditation the creator grants to his creatures the power of creation.

[wannalift]

Niranjana,
i think your philosophy makes a lot of sensen and is respectful, but when are you going to be attacked with a sword on hand unless you are returning from class? the same principle applies when i ask why people practice their art in bare feet unless they plan on being attacked in the shower. i personally refused to spend a great deal of time on weapons until i knew i could immobolize someone or someones quickly with my bare hands. i want the weapon to be an extension of my training, not my training an extension of the weapon. thats just how i feel about it based upon how i was taught to break down the reality principles of combat.
train hard,
david

[GenTDuke]

unarmed techniques in reality only supplement the armed

This is not always true, with ranged weapons such as sticks if the gap is closed the unarmed defender has the advantage.

Either way, when confronted with this situation, it makes little sense for you to rely solely on unarmed techniques when outnumbered and faced with armed aggressors.
.

I would love to carry a jo around (six foot stick) but it is ILLEGAL I must do without a weapon, it is okay for your self to carry a weapon due to religious reasons, I cannot justify it. If you are attacked by an unarmed opponent you would obviously use your weapon or they will attempt to take it, you would have to use potentially deadly force (depending on weapon, in your case a blade: deadly) and would be put in prison with all the thugs of the world who carry weapons and use them on unarmed opponents.

In short I am forced to learn unarmed combat due to statutory and common law, if I had a choice I would specialise in weapons. I have to learn to disarm, disembowel, rip out eyes and throats, break joints etc in these situations with empty hands.

I do train with weapons to understand the mechanics of every possible strike, this gives me an advantage against a common thug, but as mentioned before against an educated attacker I would have little chance, but I doubt very much an honourable martial artist would attack without reason.

[pandiriver]

This is not always true, with ranged weapons such as sticks if the gap is closed the unarmed defender has the advantage.

a stick, even a 60cm hickory one (as we practice with 'cause other wood breaks ) can very easily be turned around and used for butting, much like a palmstick. Sticks work great in close combat.

someone with a stick would get into trouble if he was focused too much on the weapon tho. A lot of people refuse to drop their stick even tho if they did they could easily knock the opponent out with his hand. 'course - a lot of people don't know jack about weapons anyway

I would love to carry a jo around (six foot stick) but it is ILLEGAL I must do without a weapon, it is okay for your self to carry a weapon due to religious reasons, I cannot justify it. If you are attacked by an unarmed opponent you would obviously use your weapon or they will attempt to take it, you would have to use potentially deadly force (depending on weapon, in your case a blade: deadly) and would be put in prison with all the thugs of the world who carry weapons and use them on unarmed opponents.

I carry my mini-maglite with me everywhere. it is a very effective close combat weapon, also 100% legal in sweden. weapons are easy to find lying about anyway. roll up a newspaper and you have a stick. Take your shoe. Use your keys as palmsticks =)

In short I am forced to learn unarmed combat due to statutory and common law, if I had a choice I would specialise in weapons. I have to learn to disarm, disembowel, rip out eyes and throats, break joints etc in these situations with empty hands.

we train the same disarms (actually escrima concept techniques are the same if you have a knife, stick, cat, empty hand or palmstick). but the problem is that to be unarmed and try to disarm someone with [whatever] just doesn't work if the guy/gal knows how his/her weapon works. it is however good to practice.. a lot of people who would jump you with say a baseball bat have no clue and will give you a little chance to go in there and knock him out.

I do train with weapons to understand the mechanics of every possible strike, this gives me an advantage against a common thug, but as mentioned before against an educated attacker I would have little chance, but I doubt very much an honourable martial artist would attack without reason.

ya.. that is the best thing about weapon training. to learn what you are up against, and what you can expect. and to learn just how fast you should run when a live blade being pulled on you an old classmate of mine is working as a bodyguard nowadays and he even went to some crossbow seminars to find out how those things work

and ya.. martial artists aren't the ones out on the streets mugging people and getting into fights over who was checking their partner out.. I remember when I started practicing WT my dad was worried about how it would make me start me going on picking fights with people. hehe.. not bloody likely, the more you train the more you learn how easy a body breaks and just how dangerous fights are (armed or unarmed).

[Mary]

Use your keys as palmsticks =)

I once used my keys in a fight, before I knew any martial arts, on the way back to my bedsit in Oxford. Some guy tried to grope me in the street, so I punched my front door key in his eye, with a big and nasty yell. I have never seen a man run so fast.

I promptly got told off by my ex, who had been wandering ahead with his mates. Apparently I should have screamed girly fashion and waited for the cavalry to arrive.

[pandiriver]

Niranjana: interesting read that... I practiced iaido for a bit, there the sword was considered more or less sacred, and getting a perfect cut would mean your soul/mind was also perfectly cleary since the sword was an extension of the mind. There was a bit of that in tai chi chuan too

[Niranjana]

Dear All,

Thanks for your responses. I note your comments and relate to them well, for I asked myself many of the same questions and which is why I first opted to learn Wing Chun (primarily unarmed) before taking any training informal or formal in armed combat.

It was only after I received the blessings of the Khanda (double-edged Sword at the centre of Khalsa Sikh initiation, also found in certain Buddhist traditions and other Indian Devi/Goddess Cults) that I looked at this differently.

Whilst I carry a blade by virtue of my religious disposition, legal rulings are legal rulings and I certainly wouldn't wish to draw it for purposes of combat at whim -for "when ALL other means have failed, only then is it righteous to draw the sword" (Guru Gobind Singh).

However, more generally speaking, my comments still stand -people have taken the armed combat too literally in that the armed aggressor is wielding a formal weapon.

In reality, as I said the aggresor will always choose to attack when it is in their advantage, either by way of numbers of force or a combination of both.

Now, looking at the latter, a whole variety of everyday things can serve as weapons from snooker cues, to bottles, to broken table/chair legs down to even pens and keys -all of these will be employed by the likes of those who will be the "typical" aggressor.

Hence, to think that you will be faced with a honourable opponent on the street one-on-one totally unarmed is somewhat naive, there is no honour left, once your engaged in combat, even people unrelated to the incident see fit to join in!

Allow to clarify my 'personal' position as a Sikh once more, yes I carry a blade it is my "Dharm" (faith/righteous action) to do so, however with it comes much in the way of responsibility.

Faced on the street with opponents like those described above, there are plenty of other options open to me before even contemplating using a Kirpan (lit. Hand of Mercy) from running away to engaging to disarm (and having them use their own weapon against themselves) through to making use of ad hoc items like umbrellas, rolled newpapers (these are more lethal than one might image) through to pens and keys.

All of this requires and merits the study and practice of armed techniques accordingly and will naturally be supplemented with unarmed "inbetween the gaps" of motion.

Hope this helps, for the record, these are my personal beliefs and in no way fully representative of each and every Sikh that you may encounter.

Regards,

Niranjana.