Self Defense

[Crash]

I wanted to start a thread where all can share tips on both the mindset and kinetic aspects of self defense. The discipline does not matter (bjj, karate, taekwondo, boxing, etc.), but good advice does. Please note, this thread is not about opinions on whether self defense is needed or not, nor is it saying you must learn self defense or whether one will ever need to use it – it is up to the individual and is good to know.

If you are interested in it, read on and include your tips. I’ll start, but again please feel free to add your own moves, tips, etc.

-Be aware of your surroundings.
-Walk confidently, attitude is everything and the way you walk can make an assailant decide if you will be an easy target or not.
-Be confident, but do not be overconfident in your ability as every situation and reaction is different.
-You can’t outrun a bullet. While there are moves that you can learn against an armed assailant (gun and knife) this is not the thread for it.
-If you can get out of a situation without physical force, do it. If not:

If someone grabs you by the wrist.
Stand in base (feet shoulder width apart) and make a fist. Twist your wrist around so your thumb is aligned with where assailant’s thumb and finger meet around your wrist. Wrench your wrist out of his grasp (when pulling your hand, emphasize on where his hand is opened). *Note, do not turn your back on your assailant when getting your wrist out of his grasp.

If you are against a wall/someone pushes you against a wall and grabs your throat.
Grab his wrist (the one holding your throat) and keep it pinned to your chest throughout. With your other hand grab/insinuate your fingers under 1 or 2 fingers of the hand holding your throat and sharply yank them backwards. I recommend practicing with a friend, so when doing this press your friend’s fingers backwards slowly so you don’t break your friend’s finger(s).

If someone grabs you from behind. (Arm around your neck)
Grab their arm (try to press it away from your throat) and pin it down on your chest with both hands.

1. If they are pressing their body against your back: Wrap your R leg around their ankle/calf area. Bend forward sharply, while still pinning their arm to your chest and flip them over your R hip. (Remember to keep their arm pinned to your chest until they go over your hip).

2. If you can’t feel their body against your back: Bend forward and simultaneously push your butt back against their hips and flip them over your R hip. (Remember to keep their arm pinned to your chest until they go over your hip).

Run away.

[muchluv]

Good self-defence should be based on soft skills and hard skills. Two or 3 'hard skills' or strikes which cover the majority of situations.

I have had very, very brief (in the grand scheme of things) experiences with an excellent self defence instructor, in an hour this person could teach so much more than i learnt with the (also very brief) time i spent as a child learning Karate.

Ok, admittedly I was a child, and that was one instructor, one class. They're not all going to be the same. I have to recall being about 7 and being taught a knife disarming, which was basically, grab their wrist, and twist outwards so it hurts them and they drop it. Almost ANY self defence techique starting with 'grab their wrist' is blatently going to suck. If a 9 stone person is attempting this on a raging, coked up 18 stone thug, they are going to have problems twisting their wrist due to 1) strength differences, 2) as soon as the thugs wrist is grabbed he could punch the victim in the head.

It's funny to remember when I relayed this technique to a cousin, still as a child, and I eagerly got them to hold a remote control like a knife. To my at the time, annoyance, they held in the opposite way to how i'd been shown. With the arm bent and the remote control-knife pointing down horror film style. I then did something to the effect of 'No not like that, like this!' (another sign that if you're having to say that, it's not going to work in the real world). Now I realise it was the technique's and system/instructors fault.

Nor was I told "at this moment in time your body is going to be coarsing with adrenaline, your mouth will go dry, your body will shake, you may feel like you need the toilet, this is your body trying to get rid of as much waste as possible so you can run faster. You will go pale as blood moves to the most needed areas/moves away from skin to stop bleeding if cut (been told both, not sure what's right but the first seems more likely). You will get tunnel vision where you can effectively only see directly in front of you, to help you deal with the threat.

Neither was I told that this is all fine, and a combination of adrenaline and other chemicals in the fight or flight repsonse to help me, not hinder me and make me think I am shitting myself scared.

'soft skills' are extremely important in self defence, and these are sometimes common sense.

For fun, let's take former heavyweight champion Lennox Lewis .

Lennox has just left a mates house on a cold december night at about 11pm, there's no one around. Freezing cold he does his coat up, puts his ipod in his ears and sticks his hands in his pockets, and sets off at a slow, begruding pace eyes at his feet.

His house is about a mile away. A short cut across a dark car park can save him a few minutes. Half way across Lennox bumps into a man standing straight infront of him, just half the size of Lennox. Lennox's heart races, this guy came out of no where?. Pulling an earphone out of his ear, Lennox asks "alright?".

"Yeh, sorry mate, do you have the time?"

"Um sure..."

Lennox looks down at his watch and as soon as he does so, the man whips a hook to the jaw of lennox, coming outside of Lennox's periphreal vision (Yes I know Ive spelt that wrong). Lennox having been suckerpunched, topples to the ground ( for anyone who doesnt buy Lennox being knocked down by a single shot, we can presume several other punches would be thrown, or some sort of weapon like a knife used). Lennox takes a few kicks while on the ground before having his ipod, wallet and phone stolen.

Now, consider this.

Why did lennox cross the deserted, dark car park?
Having his ipod plugged in stopped his sense of hearing stopping him from hearing the attacker, which also makes him a target. His ipod is also valuable, another reason he's a target, for having it on show.
Lennox presented very non-confident body language, slow, slumped, head down, hands in pockets, unaware. The predatory mindset of the attacker picks up on this. His head down also stops him from seeing the attacker.

Lennox also let his attacker come right into his own space, and then complied to look down when asked.

(this is probably unrealistic really, as the attacker would just just suckerpunch Lennox with no speaking, if he had slightly more awareness, the questoin could be used)

Now, if lennox had walked with a brisk confident gait, head up, aware of his surroundings. He becomes much less of a target. But what if that alone doesn't work?

As lennox walks, he notices a man walking towards him, and acknowledges him. As the man gets closer, Lennox asks him "can I help you mate?"
"Yeh, do you have any change?" [ still walking closer ]
"No sorry."
"Go on mate, you must do, it's really important, please"
The two are close now, and as lennox talks, he gesticulates with his hands. Appearing perfectly natural, but by doing this he blocks off his own personal space.
"No mate, honestly. I'm sorry."
"Come on mate, I'm not fucking about here, I need some change!"
The man walks into Lennox's splayed hands and lennox pushes one hand, palm out directly blocking the attacker, and does similarly with the other hand, but hadn drawn back to the shoulder.
"Look, I've told you I don't have any money, now fuck off".
"I don't fucking believe you!"
Moving forward again, the man touches against Lennox's palm.
Lennox asks,
"Why do you want change?"
Immediately after this, the man's brain is somewhat distracted. He is processing what he is being asked, and is thinking of his answer.
During this moment of distraction, Lennox throws his much practiced, devastating right cross to the man's chin, followed by either
1) a flurry of punches, or 2) grabbing the man with one hand while repeating strikes with the other hand.
His attacker on the floor, Lennox then surveys the area for othre attackers, then finding there are none, escapes.

"Be first, be fast and be ferocious".

Almost all of this was 'soft skills'. Avoidance, talking the situation down etc. Only the end bit was an actual strike. Generally it is thought that 2 or 3 techniques drilled to perfection, and drilled under pressure (recreating situations, while inducing adrenaline). Are much better than a plethora of techniques practiced only a few times.

During the rush of adrenaline the mind's thinking is impaired and will stick with what has been put into it, like a computer thats been programmed. Generally fine motor is lost and you are left with gross motor.

The 2 or 3 strikes could be a linear strike (punch or palm strike), a curved/hooked strike (hook or slap but landing with the palm of hand), and a thai knee, or edge of boot kick.

There is sooo much generic crap taught about self defence, it is terrible. It should be illegal, seriously. Because it makes people confident in their abilities when they won't work, and it could them killed. If I'd believed my karate instructor and drilled that now, and then got faced with the knife in a different position (like my cousin) I'd be stuck. Same as when I go to disarm and it doesn't work and I get murdered. This is the same for a lot of the other generic, "attacker does this, you do this fancy twirl and they're secured in your grip while the police come" stuff. While your doing this, theyre going to be fighting back and possiby hitting you. I'm not saying that this technique could never, ever work. I'm sure a big enough, strong enough person who's practiced it enough could, if the situation favours him.

Some of the most important things in self defence are
avoidance,
'the fence' (the hand gestures).
contorlling the situation/talking it down.
Understanding your own bodys reactions to adrenaline.
Oh and yes, if you can run away safely, or get away, do that instead!

This is all basics. I haven't bothered covering power transferance in strikes here, I'm guessing most people know in this subforum know the main technique of it. Jaw/chin is main target for punches for KO, once again (as again im sure people know).

[Gelert]

Almost all of this was 'soft skills'

I've been raging about this for ages. Although the slickest soft skills to drill down would have been to fix this bit:

Lennox has just left a mates house on a cold december night at about 11pm, there's no one around. Freezing cold he does his coat up, puts his ipod in his ears and sticks his hands in his pockets, and sets off at a slow, begruding pace eyes at his feet.

His house is about a mile away. A short cut across a dark car park can save him a few minutes. Half way across Lennox bumps into a man standing straight infront of him, just half the size of Lennox. Lennox's heart races, this guy came out of no where?. Pulling an earphone out of his ear, Lennox asks "alright?".

Almost ANY self defence techique starting with 'grab their wrist' is blatently going to suck.

No poo. Especially with knives. What starts out as a self defence technique can easily end up in defence wounds on a mortuary slab.

An autopsy evaluation of defence wounds in 195 homicidal deaths due to stabbing.
J Forensic Sci Soc. 1994 Oct-Dec;34(4):237-40.
Katkici U, Ozkök MS, Orsal M.

Defence wounds may be of value in differentiating between homicide, suicide and accidental death. A study of 3183 forensic autopsies in Istanbul between 1988 and 1989 showed that 195 deaths (6.1%) were due to stab wounds, and that defence wounds were found in 38.5% of the victims. Defence wounds were seen on 35.2% of males, and 54.5% of females; 39.7% of defence wounds were classified as 'active' and 60.3% as 'passive'; 40.5% were seen on the right hand and forearm, and 59.5% on the left side. There was no connection in this study between the occurrence of defence wounds and the consumption of alcohol by the victim before the stabbing.

I have a table of data somewhere at home compiled from the time it takes to lose consciousness and then die if someone cuts a given artery. The radial artery if dinged alone can result in loss of consciousness in about 2.5 seconds on average - that's one of only 12 arteries in your forearms and hands, albeit one of the better ones. Other arteries such as the subclavian are much more effective to cut, but are anatomically difficult to hit, whereas the ones in your hands and arms are easy targets, and will be the first port of call of the competent knife fighter and the thing the incompetent knife wielder gets tunnel vision about.

But the substantial majority of knife disarming methods start from the premise of putting them in even closer contact with pointy things with crappy wrist grabs etc. One has to ask why!

[baldy]

This is my favourite self defence move, specially if someone starts pushing you with both palms on your chest. Just grab the top of there fingers and push them to your belly button (stop before you break them).

[muchluv]

Gelert, you are right. Prevention is better than cure. And the points you underlined were some of the most fundamental parts of avoidance.

I should correct myself. Some of the best knife disarmings do involve attatching to the attackers wrist on the knife hand, but that is only to secure it while striking to the head with the other hand. This is taught along with the knowledge that you are most likely going to get cut.

Gelert there is a table like this in W.E. Fairbairn's 'Get Tough'. This is the man who taught hand to hand combat to WW2 troops. 30 seconds is given for unconciousness to the radial though. Pretty depressing book really, but some modern self defence draws from it.

[lapu-lapu]

I would also add regarding knifes, is to be aware of the knife but do not be so focussed on the knife that you forget that you should be fighting the actual person. What tends to happen is that so much focus is placed on the knife you forgot that the attacker has a free hand etc, hence other attack options. To try to grab the knife hand of the attacker without an attack of your own can be suicide to be honest. I believe that it is much better to attack the person holding the knife (while being aware of what the knife is doing) rather than trying to disarm without an attack - the disarm comes naturally when you start to attack their throat or eyes etc, you always need to cause pain before you can even think of disarming.

And regarding self-defence techniques such as "if someone grabs you by the throat grab their hand" etc. If someone grabs your throat, wrist, or grabs your clothes etc that means they have either one or 2 hands tied up, rather than trying to wrestle with that person, use both of your hands to take their eyes out, or take their throat, its not rocket science, you do not need to know special moves i.e, twist your wrist that way or this way, just attack!

[muchluv]

I believe that it is much better to attack the person holding the knife (while being aware of what the knife is doing) rather than trying to disarm without an attack

I am not qualified to talk about knife defence, but I guess it boils down to whether the situation is a 'pre empt', i.e. knife is drawn and is being used to threaten, or whether 'its on', and a fight is actually happening, in which case you're in trouble.

For the pre empt I imagine both an attatchment and a strike are best, for the fight being on, god knows. They only need to land one good cut or stab and you could die. They also have a much larger target area than you for a damaging attack. They also have a greater range (if the knife blade is 6 inches long, they're have 6 inches advantage in range) One thing i would add is forearms rotated outwards so the tops are facing out can be used to block as it means any cuts to the arms aren't as dangerous as they would be to the wrist where the radial artery and tendons are located.

that means they have either one or 2 hands tied up, rather than trying to wrestle with that person, use both of your hands to take their eyes out, or take their throat, its not rocket science,

Very, very true.

[KC Masterpiece]

Unless you have SEVERAL years of training in knife-work (which some of you may), you should think about running for your GD life/instantly handing over all of your valuables as a defense if someone approaches you with a weapon and you are unarmed.

[muchluv]

Unless you have SEVERAL years of training in knife-work (which some of you may), you should think about running for your GD life/instantly handing over all of your valuables as a defense if someone approaches you with a weapon and you are unarmed.

very true! leg it!!. And yes, one option is to throw your wallet one way and run the other.

Anyway, yeh knife defence is advanced and anyone reading this thread for tips on SD is going to find it a bit daunting.

[baldy]

One thing i would add is forearms rotated outwards so the tops are facing out can be used to block as it means any cuts to the arms aren't as dangerous as they would be to the wrist where the radial artery and tendons are located.

The german police videos that I have watched on defending knife attacks say you should keep your palms facing towards the ground, so any slashes will be against the sides of your arms, I gather the tops and bottoms of your arms are the most vulnerable, with arteries.

I have trained knife attacks a fair amount in Aikido, often using a little wooden tanto. Best defense is to keep your distance, preferably running. Another good attack to discuss is a broken bottle or someone trying to break one over your head, another common attack.

[lapu-lapu]

I think that generally it is always best to assume your opponent has a weapon whether they actually do or not, this will mean the way you engage will be slightly different rather than just rushing in gung ho then your attacker pulling out a knife and you not being ready etc, it also means that you will not get too tied up doing techniques but rather try to finish the fight as quickly as you can while being aware that a blade could come out at any moment. But yeah i definitely agree, running away is always the best option, but of course this is not always possible though, you may be with family, you may be injured, you may be surrounded blah blah, sometimes you just have to fight. The worst thing you can do is to curl up into a ball, which can and does happen with weapons, as people get so freaked out when seeing a weapon they feel that this is the best way to protect themselves which of course it is not. I believe that no matter how good you are with weapons, you will more than likely get cut or worse, however the advantage is that you may have some chance of surviving.

[Gelert]

Good spot on my source - and my bad too about the timings - I confused the subclavian times but note that either or both the brachial or radial is at risk.

They also have a greater range (if the knife blade is 6 inches long, they're have 6 inches advantage in range)

This is an interesting point. I'll bastardize something familiar to US coppers as the Tueller drill to explain it's possibly more than six inches.

Imagine you're armed with a handgun, and are fairly competent with it - say to the level of a routinely armed police officer.

It would take roughly 1.2-1.4 seconds for you to draw and unload two rounds into a human sized target at a range of 21 feet.


Tests with volunteers show that it's possible to rush 21 feet and stab someone with a rubber knife within 1.5 seconds.

This has led the American police to decide that the safe distance to engage someone who brought a knife to a gun fight is 21 feet. In broad daylight, with your sole adversary to the front.

Elements of this apply specifically to defending yourself while armed. But this applies to reaction times and distances when crudely put, you have the ability to wave death on a stick upon the opponent - think about how long it takes to disarm someone manually. Where your attacker is now, and where they're going to be in 1.5 seconds, where you can predict that.

Anyway, I hope that helps to illustrate that the concept of slashing radius as the effective distance of a knife user is woefully inadequate.

Unfortunately, everytime I've encountered someone with an edged weapon* I've been far too close and soft skills have been the order of the day, because the only other option - committing to massive ultraviolence the instant they make one positive move to close - would be a distinct second best.

[muchluv]

Gelert, do we have the same source or is yours different?

I'm guessing the table must be somewhat accurate on an average, there must be such information knocking about in medical books.

That's a good point Gelert, and I've heard that about 21 feet before. I was really just making a generalised point that they could stab you with 4 inches of knife while your punching distance is 2 inches away.

[Crash]

While I am all for free discourse and that this has sparked a discussion, per my initial post please do not put any knife attack or gun attack defenses in this thread as these are no joke and not to be learned via a message board.

Per my initial post:

-You can’t outrun a bullet. While there are moves that you can learn against an armed assailant (gun and knife) this is not the thread for it.

That said because some have brought up knife attacks, my 2 cents…

Almost ANY self defence techique starting with 'grab their wrist' is blatently going to suck.

It’s never a good idea to use your bare appendages to grab at someone with a knife, unless you have no choice. If you do not have a choice then do not give the attacker an area that contains a major artery, vein, etc. If you do, you will lose blood and pass out and probably die – which is not the thought behind self defense. If you are really worried about defending against knife attacks, find a very good teacher/ class and practice, practice, practice. Of course – disclaimer: do not engage the knife wielder and run away if possible.

Non knife / Non gun attacks - if you are being pushed or choked, grabbing the attacker’s wrist will help you control their arm to either prevent them from tightening their choke hold or it will strengthen the pressure of your torque by keeping their hand in place while applying it. It’s a shame that I can’t show you the technique I am trying to describe (especially you, Gelert ( ), but in my experience when done properly this will work – however, you have to practice it until it becomes second nature and you don’t have to think about it. Your body will just react. Again, find reputable teachers/classes and practice, practice, practice as just reading about it on a message board is not going to prepare one.

No poo. Especially with knives. What starts out as a self defence technique can easily end up in defence wounds on a mortuary slab.

An autopsy evaluation of defence wounds in 195 homicidal deaths due to stabbing.
J Forensic Sci Soc. 1994 Oct-Dec;34(4):237-40.
Katkici U, Ozkök MS, Orsal M.

Defence wounds may be of value in differentiating between homicide, suicide and accidental death. A study of 3183 forensic autopsies in Istanbul between 1988 and 1989 showed that 195 deaths (6.1%) were due to stab wounds, and that defence wounds were found in 38.5% of the victims. Defence wounds were seen on 35.2% of males, and 54.5% of females; 39.7% of defence wounds were classified as 'active' and 60.3% as 'passive'; 40.5% were seen on the right hand and forearm, and 59.5% on the left side. There was no connection in this study between the occurrence of defence wounds and the consumption of alcohol by the victim before the stabbing.

Gelert, with much affection I point out you are not reading this report correctly. That doesn't mean that engaging someone with a knife is not dangerous and could lead to death, but during a knife attack defensive wounds are not usually gotten from “self defense moves” – but from attempting to defend one’s body from stabs. I.e., most defensive wounds in knife attacks usually happen when the attacker starts stabbing and the victim attempts to defend their body with their arms and hands - not using a learned, deliberate technique of defense. Granted, no one thing will work in each situation because each situation is different. Every person will react differently – you and the attacker. Also, a good physical self defense technique is not going to rely on strength - but on technique, stress points and torque. You must learn to improvise as nothing will be set up perfectly (as witnessed by the remote control knife experiment). No technique is perfect, unless in a controlled environment, which attacks are not – but there are a few basic things you can learn and use them to fit your need. But again, this thread was not started to teach vague defensive moves about knife and/or gun attacks.

And regarding self-defence techniques such as "if someone grabs you by the throat grab their hand" etc. If someone grabs your throat, wrist, or grabs your clothes etc that means they have either one or 2 hands tied up, rather than trying to wrestle with that person, use both of your hands to take their eyes out, or take their throat, its not rocket science, you do not need to know special moves i.e, twist your wrist that way or this way, just attack!

You are correct in that finding a weak point and attacking are good; however, a good attack will always be based on strategy and set up not just flailing about wildly, hence the steps for set up purposes. Also, if you go for their eyes or throat, chances are they are going to stab out with their knife and if you are in the way you have just left yourself wide open because your hands will be engaged. Please think through your actions and advice.

Anyway, yeh knife defence is advanced and anyone reading this thread for tips on SD is going to find it a bit daunting.

Let me again direct your attention to my initial post:

-You can’t outrun a bullet. While there are moves that you can learn against an armed assailant (gun and knife) this is not the thread for it.

Again, as I too have always stated - it is a good idea to only use violence as a last resort. It is usually a good idea not to antagonize your attacker and to get as much distance from the knife and your body as possible and get away. But if you cannot get away, then you have a decision to make.

That does not mean an advocation of violence, it means an advocation of protecting yourself.

Now please, only your self defense tips against un-armed assailants or by all means start another thread.

[muchluv]

Crash, with all due respect this thread is 2 years old and the first post was the only one in it. My point about knives only arose to illustrate the difficulty in a lot of wrist-lock type self defence moves that get thrown around. (no pun intended)

Yes, knife defence cannot be learnt over the internet but this has splintered off into a knife defence debate which wasn't my intention. However I don't see the harm in discussing it, and I don't understand why it needs to be on another thread, but if people do want to keep discussing it on aonther thread then sure.

You cannot learn it through the internet obviously, it has to be drilled over and over again and under pressure. But surely this is the same with the techniques you posted up, just as you said they have to be drilled to second nature. Surely then, doesnt the idea of it being a bad idea to talk about knife defence on a messageboard also apply to these techniques? Before you say anything about knife attacks being more dangerous, yes they are extremely dangerous, but so is being choked, especially from the position you describe 'arm around your neck', if this is going into a rear choke that has to be in many ways as dangerous as a knife attack. Unconciousness results in seconds, and if the attacker doesn't know how dangerous this is, they can hold for too long resulting in brain damage or death. Also incorrect arm placement can damage the windpipe. So surely this should be covered by your 'just reading it on a mesage board is not going to prepare one'. I would add if the attacker pulls you backwards immediately, so your not standing, it would be impossible to work any of these throwing techniques. Obviously, you're pretty boned in that situation. I say go for the testicles, if you're able too

I know this is going to turn into a 'thing' because we're going to disagree about each others information. I personally have a difference of opinion on the torque/wrist twisting stuff, and I can tell you will stick to your own opinions too. I will just state, for the record, that I think SD stratergies and techniques should be able to be taught to the majority of people, and a few techniques should apply to the majority of circumstances. When I say majority of people I mean regardless of ability, and that it seems to me some of the the techniques you described in your first post, will falter when size and strength difference comes into it.

In regards to the pushed up against the wall/choking scenario. If a large, strong assailant (perhaps drunken, or otherwise intoxicated, angry 110kg man) has a much smaller victim against the wall and with much force are crushing the neck and throat of their victim with extreme anger and deep want to hurt this person, especially with both hands, the victims breathing ability will be made difficult very fast, and their vision will darken quickly. I personally don't see the point in messing about trying to get their hands away when you could be hitting them in the jaw or any other target that will yield to hopefully great effect. I would also add, when their wrists are off you.. then what? If you hurt them enough or knock them down while their hands are still on you, and can make your escape, isn't this better, and saves more time then getting their hands off you then having to deal with them?. I mean, right, their hands are off you, then they just try again or go to strike you or whatever. I just cannot realistically see any point in this wrist stuff unless there's a very specific reason.

Once again, I don't think we're going to get an agreement on this so I would like to apologise for hijacking your thread with knife stuff and I too think it would be better to discuss other areas of SD.

I've made another post on the next page BTW