systema

[EceGled]

So I poured through this entire forum and didn't find a thread on systema (though I did find a lot of repeat threads!). I don't know how popular this art is. Anyone here train it?

I haven't yet, but really want to. Right now I train Aikido and my instructor brings little bits of it into Aikido class. His systema instructor teaches on campus by invitation only. It sounds almost a little secretive, but apparently the systema instructor is really good and got nidan in Aikido within a year of training... and classes are really expensive, which is a huge reason why I haven't gone yet. But, apparently, it makes for great cross-training with Aikido. Shared principles of relaxation and flow.

[Jon]

I've been doing Systema on and off for about 5 or 6 years now and I absolutely love it, although I fucked around the first few years and have only really been starting to take it seriously (and consequently enjoy it more) the last few months or so. I have no frame of reference as I've never done any other martial arts (although a number of people I train with, who previously studied other styles have stopped them since starting Systema), but I think its really excellent both in terms of physical, psychological and physiological training/ preparation.

My instructor is ex-Russian special forces and, despite being a pretty hard dude, is a very knowledgeable, down to earth, fun/funny and friendly chap and I have an endless amount of respect for him. I can't say how it is in other countries, but the approach to Systema training where I live is very relaxed and friendly, and we always have a great time at class (although there are always moments/ sessions I really wish I was elsewhere as it can be pretty grueling).

Its expensive here too, but I feel its very worth it. Prices are going up at the end of the year too, which means I will have to cut back on other expenses as there's no way I'm not going to do Systema. I'm not going to classes this month as I'm saving for a trip abroad, and I already miss it after a week.

So, in a nutshell, I would say DO IT!! At least go to classes for a month and see how you feel after that. You'll either love it or hate it. Competition between students is completely discouraged, so if you go there with a macho attitude and something to prove, the instructor will probably make an example of you and you won't last. If, however, you go there with an open mind, willing to learn and nothing to prove, you'll go far.

Here's a link to my school if you want to check out about the background etc: http://www.cqcia.com/

I'd also really like to share experiences with you and find out how you like it if you do decide to go.

[Jon]

this is pretty cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7_dzu4TQDs

[EceGled]

the approach to Systema training where I live is very relaxed and friendly, and we always have a great time at class (although there are always moments/ sessions I really wish I was elsewhere as it can be pretty grueling).

Heh, yeah... I'm not very tough physically... when I first watched videos of systema, it was kind of scary to think of training in it. Even my instructor said he's been having to deal with acceptance of getting hurt by his systema instructor. He showed me a massive bruise once. But I know that the systema we've trained in Aikido class has made me a wee bit tougher, so I'm sure that it's something that pays off.

I'm also kind of scared because our most active shodan in Aikido class told me last night that she doesn't do systema because of a "personality clash" with the instructor. I tend to think she and I have similar personalities in Aikido class... I've seen her react to our instructor the same way I do when he's being a bit tough, and I haven't seen anyone else do that, or show it.

But I'll just have to see for myself.

I'd also really like to share experiences with you and find out how you like it if you do decide to go.

Sure. I'll see if I can attend a class some time this semester.

[Gelert]

I think the credibility of any self defence system is in inverse proportion the the number of photographs in the website gallery showing men in camouflage, and even (badly prepared) ghillie suits, tabbing around with bergens on, learning to use sniper rifles, laying traps and skinning animals.

None of the above have any relevance to the skill set required by a civilian individual to protect themselves in any location where there is a semblance of the rule of law.

I'm not saying this is the case in the instance of your school, Jon, but I've seen and heard of plenty of other schools offering "special forces" or "CQB" training to civilians.

Quite often the nearest the instructors have been to any kind of SF organisation is reading too many books about them, and then civilians attending the course are often a blend of criminals, terrorists, wannabes, informers and mentally unstable people.

Avoid.

[Heinrich]

Well, if its fun for you, do it.

What makes me sceptical about its use is
a) the video
b)

some of the thoughts that continue to amaze me include:
[...]
3. The awesome ability that a Systema master/instructor has

c) The proof of effectiveness being the trainer beating up his students

When the alot of money comes into play, Id think twice.

edit:
I have found more:

The System is designed to create, build and strengthen your body, your psyche, your family and your country.

(my country?)

People (the Slavic people) who believe in goodness, mercy and humility. Those qualities characterize the Russian nation [...]

And last but not least:
Its a Russian Ortodox Church thing. Comeon.

[Jon]

Scepticism is good. My only advice, for anyone interested or sceptical is to try it out for a month or two. If it works for you, cool. If not, you would at least have got in some good physical training/ excersise.

[:x:]

what i heard about systema quite often is, that it's pretty much show, and does not work properly. what i see in many videos makes me think quite the same things, but still i don't know much about systema though. i think i'd like to spar with a systema-practitioner to see if they really have these uber-punches and stuff.

what i think really sucks is that "TEH SYSTEM!!!11!1" talking going on. every good system is aware of the fact, that there is no such thing as the perfect self defence system...

[EceGled]

Judging a martial art purely based on the way it is marketed is not very useful, in my opinion. Aikido is typically marketed for self-defense, but many Aikidoka argue that it's simply not the best choice if that's all you're looking for. The others in my Aikido club suggest that it would be unethical to market Aikido as self-defense, yet that is usually what happens elsewhere. Does that make Aikido unworthy of credit for what is it?

The proof of effectiveness being the trainer beating up his students

What other proof would you expect? When I'm in Aikido class, my instructor asks me to stand there so he can punch me and do technique on me to demonstrate to the class. He never asks me to punch him.

I'm more interested in talking about the art itself than "proof" to people who sound like they've never even heard of it before... but I've seen the effectiveness of systema myself, so... *shrug*

that it's pretty much show, and does not work properly

WHY??? Why doesn't it work properly?! Tell me that.

[Gelert]

What other proof would you expect? When I'm in Aikido class, my instructor asks me to stand there so he can punch me and do technique on me to demonstrate to the class. He never asks me to punch him.

The issue is that this is often presented as proof of its effectiveness. There is a subtle but important difference between this and demonstrating a method as part of an educational framework (e.g. explain, demonstrate, imitate and practice)

Cf with:

When I'm in a fight, I ask my opponent to stand there so I can punch him and do my moves.

what i heard about systema quite often is, that it's pretty much show, and does not work properly.

Although you must admit the sharpened entrenching tools that Spetsnaz types love to cut around with in their demos aren't to be messed with...

[Heinrich]

The proof of effectiveness being the trainer beating up his students

What other proof would you expect? When I'm in Aikido class, my instructor asks me to stand there so he can punch me and do technique on me to demonstrate to the class. He never asks me to punch him.

All its demonstrating is that those techniques work when done from an experienced, trained authoroty-figure on inexperienced untrained students.
They know whats comming and know how they should react.

I know it from myself that when training throws, at some point one tends to jump with the throw to make it work. And thats what alot of those moves look like.

Again, Im not tryind to dis this. I just want to point some things out that jumped into my eye.

[EceGled]

When I'm in a fight, I ask my opponent to stand there so I can punch him and do my moves.

It isn't a real fight. It's a demonstration.

And this guy, if you pay attention much at all to the videos, is clearly demonstrating to a class. He is NOT demonstrating just to look cool on video. People are always standing/sitting around him observing as a class would. It is also hardly the only video on systema on YouTube. There are others that don't show instructors at all.

inexperienced untrained students.

Have you provided any evidence that these students are "inexperienced" or "untrained"? No, you haven't. They look trained to me. You get hit properly in the solar plexis and see what happens. One thing I've learned in practice that comes from systema is how to deal with punches to the stomach and solar plexis. I talked to a friend of mine who is shodan in TKD and had never heard of the breathing method I explained for dealing with that. I was just watching a systema video where one guy was doing a normal, untrained punch on another student and couldn't get much of a reaction out of the other student, who was obviously trained in taking hits. Then the teacher demonstrates a systema punch and the student falls down.

[Gelert]

When I'm in a fight, I ask my opponent to stand there so I can punch him and do my moves.

It isn't a real fight. It's a demonstration.

I'm glad you are aware of the distinction. As ye train, so shall ye fight

[:x:]

inexperienced untrained students.

Have you provided any evidence that these students are "inexperienced" or "untrained"? No, you haven't. They look trained to me. You get hit properly in the solar plexis and see what happens. One thing I've learned in practice that comes from systema is how to deal with punches to the stomach and solar plexis. I talked to a friend of mine who is shodan in TKD and had never heard of the breathing method I explained for dealing with that. I was just watching a systema video where one guy was doing a normal, untrained punch on another student and couldn't get much of a reaction out of the other student, who was obviously trained in taking hits. Then the teacher demonstrates a systema punch and the student falls down.

the people in the vid might be trained students, but still you (and i and everybody else starting systema) are untrained inexperienced students first, so the question is, wether it works for them or not. the breathing in systema might be a good thing, that's possible, but still i stay a little sceptical.

videos do not show anything. i can produce videos in which i let wanderlei silva hit somebodys belly and then i kiss it, which makes the person fall and cry terribly...
there is a great vid on youtube in which a karate-master shows his supercool technique which brings his students to the ground without even touching. a team of paramedics can even show that these people actually feel something, but that might be autosuggestion. then the karate-master is asked to show his moves on some bjj-practitioners and...nothing happens.
bazing!

[KC Masterpiece]

there is a great vid on youtube in which a karate-master shows his supercool technique which brings his students to the ground without even touching. a team of paramedics can even show that these people actually feel something, but that might be autosuggestion. then the karate-master is asked to show his moves on some bjj-practitioners and...nothing happens.
bazing!

Something like this?