Bruce Lee - Overrated?

[SpugFab]

[Jeet Kune Do] is the only striking book I feel I need in my library on Martial Arts.

Inspired by Edison Carasio's thread about Jeet Kune Do, I feel the need to ask:

Does Bruce Lee deserve his place at the pinnacle of martial arts? How relevant is he nowadays?

Would he even have defeated a peak Steven Seagal?

[Fallen_Horse]

Would he even have defeated a peak Steven Seagal?

This is blasphemy! This is madness!

[tempehmomma]

Would he even have defeated a peak Steven Seagal?

This is blasphemy! This is madness!

[XkillerX]

yes, he does.

and the godfather of jitsu deserves it as well.

[SpugFab]

Would he even have defeated a peak Steven Seagal?

This is blasphemy! This is madness!

Seagal size advantage FTW

[Talyn]

bruce lee vs steven sagal? pffffftt

i don't rate steven sagal at all, even when he was at his peak, especially not in more recent times either

[JP]

Jean-Claude Van Damme would beat both of them.

or charm them.

[SpugFab]

Seagal is 6'4 though. And vegetarian...

Curious though - actor martial artists like Seagal, Norris, Van Damme - we treat them somewhat jokingly. Few martial arts posts will start with "Chuck Norris said..." for non-humourous reasons.

But when it comes to Bruce he is treated seriously.

What are the reasons for this? Is it simply the early death and the fame, or was it the demonstrations, or was it the development of Jeet Kune Do?

[Edison Carasio]

I would like to post a long response to this, but I don't have time, so I will later.

Short answer is, to me, the development of his philosophies on fighting and the connection between body, health, and martial prowess. His boxing skills were of a high calibre, and he was much more of a true "martial artist" than anyone in the past 200 years.

[Fallen_Horse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q9kYKtvYU0

[sonnyd7]

Jean-Claude Van Damme would beat both of them.

or charm them.

he'd turn em both gay

all kidding aside, bruce lee debate will continue to go on, but bruce is the one who first put martial arts on the map. while it's always debatable whether he's the best or not, nobody's made a bigger impact in the popularity of martial arts.

I'll say that despite the size difference, bruce would kick the crap out of seagal despite the size difference. bruce had some serious power for a little guy and nobody can deny how fast he was. Bruce is the pioneer of MMA, who threw away traditional styles and created his own system of striking/boxing/and also incorporated jiu jitsu/aikido moves. The guy was way ahead of his time.

[Edison Carasio]

To elaborate on my feelings further:


I think Bruce is the most important martial artist in our life time. His philosophies were ground breaking at the time, and not since the ancient Greeks destroyed their opposition with Pankratia had anyone had a comprehensive fighting style. And I only use the word "style" in a sense of personal individual expression.

Bruce's place among the greatest martial artists is undisputable to me. I do not base this his fighting ability for the sake of arguement. My personal opinion is that Jun Fan's speed, reflexes and mind made him a dangerous fighter. But his methods of training his physique and body to be able to handle anything was revolutionary at the time. He combined the elements of body building and fitness in general with fighting ability.

I say that the Jeet Kun Do is the only striking book I need because it is comprehensive. Bruce lays out the best forms of attack, stresses the important of head, foot, hip and striking weapon alignment. He does not tell you HOW to throw a punch, but how to APPLY that knowledge. I know how to throw a jab, a cross, a hook and an uppercut. I know how to perform a straight side kick, a round house, a hook kick etc. However, Jun Fan offers his commentary on how to apply these into the most destructive way possible. Bruce treated it as science, using anatomy and physics to create the most destructive methods possible.

For all of this, Bruce deserves his place in Martial Arts history. Every time we watch MMA, those ideas began with Jun Fan and the Pankratists before him.

[SpugFab]

Every time we watch MMA, those ideas began with Jun Fan and the Pankratists before him.

There must be a strong argument for saying the major development line for MMA is the japan->jitsu->judo->brazil (I think a student of Jigoro Kano took it to Brazil with him) and then the emergence of vale tudo. Muay Thai looks to me to be the major source of inspiration for strikers. What influence do you see from Bruce?

Doesn't every style of martial art begin with a rejection of an established set of ideas and the incorporation of new ones? What made Bruce's rejection of Wing Chun and development of Jeet Kune Do unique in this regard?

As for his methods of training - it has taken us a long time to shed the ideas we picked up in the 70s and 80s, especially the idea that bodybuilding methods are suitable for improving performance. It isn't about how you look (although it is handy if you are a movie star). How do his methods compare with the way martial artists train today?

[Edison Carasio]

There must be a strong argument for saying the major development line for MMA is the japan->jitsu->judo->brazil (I think a student of Jigoro Kano took it to Brazil with him) and then the emergence of vale tudo. Muay Thai looks to me to be the major source of inspiration for strikers. What influence do you see from Bruce?

The philosophy that striking and grappling can be combined into the most effective way of fighting. Judo and Jitsu fighters do not like to strike, they do not like to stand and they do not like getting punched. This limits them in their effectiveness overall. BJJ just proved effective in early MMA BECAUSE of style limitations. When you have a group of strikers who have NEVER seen ground fighting before, then of course it will be effective. If anything, Bruce's ideas of shedding pure styles for proficiency in all aspects shows true in this.

Doesn't every style of martial art begin with a rejection of an established set of ideas and the incorporation of new ones? What made Bruce's rejection of Wing Chun and development of Jeet Kune Do unique in this regard?

But in the rejection of a style to establish a new one is a never ending cycle. You're stuck with one style no matter what. "This is not the way to strike. You should do it like this and only like this" just sets a new group of limitations on yourself. To reject somethign only to cement yourself in a new way is just counter productive. Then you establish a group of narrow minded people.

As for his methods of training - it has taken us a long time to shed the ideas we picked up in the 70s and 80s, especially the idea that bodybuilding methods are suitable for improving performance. It isn't about how you look (although it is handy if you are a movie star). How do his methods compare with the way martial artists train today?

His methods ARE the methods used today. Compare any training regimen of a top MMA or boxing star today and compare them to the ones Bruce used. The are the same principals. Weight training to increase muscular strenght and endurance, cardio work to improve heart and lungs to support the muscles, proper diet to ensure that the body can be healthy enough to train very hard.

[SpugFab]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu

Interesting guy this Edward Barton-Wright...

Bartitsu was the first martial art to have deliberately combined Asian and European fighting styles towards addressing the problems of civilian/urban self-defence in an "unarmed society". In this, Barton-Wright anticipated Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do approach by over seventy years. Barton-Wright's philosophy of pragmatic eclecticism was taken up by other early 20th century European self-defence specialists, including Percy Longhurst, William Garrud and Jean Joseph-Renaud, all of whom had studied with former Bartitsu Club instructors