Combat classes with a mashed hand?

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Postby Catt Queen » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:29 am

[quote="my bloody valentine"]Chinese Kung Fu.
like... Tiger Claw, elbow, crane, strike using your forearm, Open Hand strike, finger jab..(Hung Gar), palms, mantis hand, elbow...( Seven Star Praying Mantis.)


Will look into it thanx :)
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Postby spike » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:35 am

How about find soemthing that you want to do and then speak to the instructor about your hand. I'm sure they can accommodate you, and if they can't then you're probably better off training with a different instructor anyway.
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Postby Catt Queen » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:52 am

I've just emailed a local martial arts academy and asked the question :)
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Postby Gelert » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:45 pm

[quote="Asleep on a sunbeam"][quote="Muay Jin"]elbow>fist>palm


fail:

palm/elbow>fist


Both fail. Why close in with an elbow and then retreat to a nice punching range? Aim should be to use speed and violence of action to create an opportunity to escape. This means getting stuck in quickly, not dropping back to go twelve rounds.

Palm to chin
Knee to testicles. Close in fluidly.
If the subject crunches up into kneeing range, knee his chin. Should break his jaw if you haven't already. If not in kneeing range, uppercut elbow to throat/chin.

If you want to stun him or render him unconscious if done correctly deliver palm strikes to both ears simultaneously at this point. For better effect, cup your hands slightly.

Catt, you can try the experiment without fear - the key words in what I said were as much as you dare - basically use as much force as you feel you're comfortable with instinctively using on a concrete wall. We're usually well attuned for self preservation :wink:
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Postby Muay Jin » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:53 pm

No lol, we weren't talking about order of doing things, just what we thought was a better attack overall.

ps: if you're going to fight like that ill go get my stick :P
There is no try, only do.
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Postby Gelert » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:06 pm

[quote="Muay Jin"]No lol, we weren't talking about order of doing things, just what we thought was a better attack overall.

ps: if you're going to fight like that ill go get my stick :P


Gotcha. I'll retreat to the corner with my dunce hat :oops:

No prizes for second place, and no rules so crack on. I never understood this squeamishness guys (in particular) have about tackling the wedding tackle. It's nice and manly to break someone's nose and their jaw in four places, but to tear his testes off is not something to tell the vicar about over sunday tea for some reason.

It's not something to do while training, no doubt, but any option is on the table, right?
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Postby Asleep on a sunbeam » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:12 pm

whilst I do love a good fisting I think that I will be able to get more power into an open hand, and probably have more control over it as well.
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Postby tempehmomma » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:53 pm

[quote="my bloody valentine"]Chinese Kung Fu.
like... Tiger Claw, elbow, crane, strike using your forearm, Open Hand strike, finger jab..(Hung Gar), palms, mantis hand, elbow...( Seven Star Praying Mantis.)
If you're not accurate with a finger jab it's a good way to break your fingers.
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Postby Asleep on a sunbeam » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:30 pm

[quote="tempehmomma"][quote="my bloody valentine"]Chinese Kung Fu.
like... Tiger Claw, elbow, crane, strike using your forearm, Open Hand strike, finger jab..(Hung Gar), palms, mantis hand, elbow...( Seven Star Praying Mantis.)
If you're not accurate with a finger jab it's a good way to break your fingers.


Which arts use finger jabs?

I've never even considered using one before.
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Postby spike » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:39 pm

[quote="Asleep on a sunbeam"]Which arts use finger jabs?

I've never even considered using one before.


We use fingertip thrusts in taekwondo (i'm assuming this is the same as "finger jab").
It's not something we use much, but it appears in some of the patterns and can be useful in self defence, though would not normally be first choice technique for that purpose!
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Postby Gelert » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:03 pm

Depends on how serious the confrontation is, I'd say, because they would be fairly good for tackling someone's eyes. Can't think of many other first-choice targets other than maybe where the mandible meets the mastoid process, but that's really showing off a bit.

The disadvantage is you are likely to cause serious eyesight problems and maybe kill if you jab with sufficient force. However, you are very likely to stop him/her without even needing anywhere like that force or the force you'd need to break a finger if you missed.

There is also the advantage that you're basically "pointing" and as such have better hand-eye coordination to do that. Some people also have a tendency to develop tunnel vision and lock eye contact with an opponent under pressure. That can be exploited by "pointing" with a finger jab with high precision, and of course the other anatomical features of the face guide you into the eye sockets nicely.
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Postby Catt Queen » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:22 pm

So... say someone was coming at you, very likely armed with a knife, and you weren't able to get away - what then?
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Postby Asleep on a sunbeam » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:37 pm

[quote="Catt Queen"]So... say someone was coming at you, very likely armed with a knife, and you weren't able to get away - what then?


"here's my wallet, here's my dignity, is there anything else you want? If it's my life I'm gonna fucking kill you you little bitch"

Yeah, something like that, although past the question mark I'd be speaking inside my head.
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Postby Gelert » Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:59 pm

Shoot him.

OK, it would be difficult to describe over the internet as it would be to deal with in reality. As with all "what ifs" there is the potential for taking the piss with hindsight at others' assumptions. Equally disarming people takes a lot of practice and skill but generally I would suggest the following. It will be a bit wordy, because the complexities of the situation mean you need many words to cover as few deeds as possible!

I'll assume the following. The person is visibly carrying a knife and moving towards you. We'll (equally) slightly unrealistically assume that he's a good few metres away and advancing zombie like to allow us time to consider different options. He may be muttering threats or making demands, or just trying to back you into a corner.


1. Stay calm. Breathe in deeply. It's only a knife, not an Uzi. Man up, that man! You must also accept the probability you will get cut. Don't let that fear get in the way.

2. Assess the situation. You need answers to a lot of important questions, quickly. Some of these questions are:

What's his intent? Does he want to rob you, rape you, take you hostage or just plain cut and kill? Does he in fact want to do anything other than put the frightners on you for a laugh?

Do you really have no escape route, or are you not thinking hard or creatively enough?

What kind of knife is he carrying? Is it a great-big-feck-off shiny one, or a small and nasty one? Is it good for stabbing, slashing, thrusting?

How is he carrying it? This not also dictates how he will use it, but will highlight his level of proficiency and experience with a knife. Has he learnt this from Hollywood or Haringey?

The better knife fighter may tend to hold the knife a bit like a house painting brush with the tip at you horizontally, stand a little crouched, and have his non-dominant hand up to fend you off, or distract you. This kind of man will be after your deep-seated arteries. Unfortunately, the knife-fighting noob who has borrowed his gran's cleaver is every bit as dangerous.

Which leads us to the most important question: What will he do with it?

OK, armed with this bit of intelligence gathering, you should be able to come up with a plan of action. If he wants to rob you, give him the money. Gladly. The other bits you may want to fight for.

3. Keep breathing. Oxygen is your friend. Under all kinds of pressure, from public speaking to fighting, people forget to breathe. This adds to the stress and clouds judgement. You also want to oxygenate your muscles and blood vessels. The latter bit is important if you get cut badly...

The above should have taken you a few seconds, tops. It also gives you options you may not have considered before - for example, a doorway you missed, or the thought that the guy wants your wallet.

4. As general principles, use the four Cs to guide your response if you decide you need to fight to protect yourself.

COMMUNICATE: Ask him what he wants. You may even be able to establish DIALOGUE. That buys you time, but don't be lulled into false security at any point. If not, issue DIRECTIONS. Be loud, assertive and use short commands (Back off! Drop the knife!) Also, communicate with others who may be able to help - DIVERT. Even if there is nobody, an attacker may give pause if he thinks Bob, Slug, Scrapper, Danny, Trev and Masher are just around the corner ready to make his soul homeless. Scream loudly as the imminent prelude to:

CONTACT: Hit him as hard as you can with whatever you can. Stuff from your environment is optimal because it avoids having to close in unnessecarily

CONTROL: Archetypally this would involve using something as a shield - be it a chair, a bin lid, a bag or coat. Use it to corner the knife. If all else fails, remember pain is a good means of control. What you're hoping to do is to remove the knife from the equation to hurt your opponent to create an opportunity to

COUNTER: This is when you take the knife out. Avoid the blade and focus on making him drop it. This can either be by relieving him of consciousness or punching his wrist or similar.

You are likely to get cut, as I said above. Accept that. People often end up with defence wounds, this is where they've been cut in the hands and forearms trying to fend off the knife. This would be a question of prioritising life over limb, were it not for two problems with the human anatomy, namely the brachial and radial arteries. I have seen statistics showing the time to unconsciousness is 14 to 30 seconds for those arteries when cut, respectively; death of course follows unconsciousness. These arteries are most vulnerable on your biceps and the insides of your forearms. Use your stance to protect these points, and don't get cut here or you will be out of the fight.

Anyway, that's full of holes, bullshit and assumptions. In practice, I've only got as far as the first C and having to consider the remaining three. Perhaps by blind luck, but perhaps by going at it this way, both times the remaining three Cs weren't needed.
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Postby tempehmomma » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:28 pm

[quote="Gelert"]Depends on how serious the confrontation is, I'd say, because they would be fairly good for tackling someone's eyes. Can't think of many other first-choice targets other than maybe where the mandible meets the mastoid process, but that's really showing off a bit.

The disadvantage is you are likely to cause serious eyesight problems and maybe kill if you jab with sufficient force. However, you are very likely to stop him/her without even needing anywhere like that force or the force you'd need to break a finger if you missed.

There is also the advantage that you're basically "pointing" and as such have better hand-eye coordination to do that. Some people also have a tendency to develop tunnel vision and lock eye contact with an opponent under pressure. That can be exploited by "pointing" with a finger jab with high precision, and of course the other anatomical features of the face guide you into the eye sockets nicely.
Gouge the eyes don't jab.
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