MMA - help me understand

Styles, training, conditioning, equipment - everything related to Martial Arts.

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Postby ninearms » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:11 pm

Yeah, great fight. Worthy of Rocky 7 I reckon.

Actually, that's a pretty good indicator of a fight's quality - would it make a good Rocky film (the whole thing, the build up, the fight, the aftermath)?
“Begin at the beginning,” the King said gravely, “and go on till you come to the end. Then stop.”
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Postby tempehmomma » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:42 pm

[quote="ninearms"]That argument doesn't make sense. It's like saying American Football is popular because the best American Football player would beat the best rugby union player in a game of American Football.
I don't think your argument is a good one. There are many reasons why the NFL is more popular than rugby that have nothing to do with athletic performance on the playing field.
[quote="spug_myers"]Come to think of it this thread is asking for similar to the "MMA/NHB favourite fighter/favourite fight" thread, but considering NO-ONE HAS MANAGED TO PICK OUT A FAVOURITE FIGHT in that thread I think it's worth asking again.
spug, stop making passive aggressive personal attacks against me.[quote="spug_myers"][quote="tempehmomma"]One of the reasons why MMA is popular is because if the top pro boxer fought the top pro MMA fighter in ANY weight division the boxer would get destroyed.

MMA fighters are complete well rounded fighters. Boxers are one-dimentional fighters. An MMA fighter could fuck you up in 20 different ways.

:roll: :roll:

To be honest a cricketer beats them both.
A marksman would win hands down. :roll: :roll: :roll:
[quote="spug_myers"][quote="tempehmomma"]One of the reasons why MMA is popular is because if the top pro boxer fought the top pro MMA fighter in ANY weight division the boxer would get destroyed.

Thinking about this and I reckon tempeh has a point. This is one of the reasons why MMA is popular. It's a stupid reason, but internet fanboys are not reknowned for good reasoning.
How is that a stupid reason? :? Two world class fighters from different combat sports fight with limited rules and the MMA fighter would win every time.
[quote="spug_myers"]The first UFC was in 1993 - in those days Benn fought McClellan, Holyfield had his trilogy with Bowe (then went on to fight Tyson). We've had virtually Arturo Gatti's whole career (including fights with Rodriguez, Ruelas, Robinson, Ward). I'm looking for fights which rival those for excitement, skill, swings, heart, desire. I'm not finding them.How would any of the boxers you named fair in a MMA/NHB match? The Jiu Jitsu Mafia has challenged Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson. Why didn't any of the above boxers except the Jiu Jitsu Mafia challenge?
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Postby ninearms » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:53 pm

[quote="tempehmomma"][quote="ninearms"]That argument doesn't make sense. It's like saying American Football is popular because the best American Football player would beat the best rugby union player in a game of American Football.


I don't think your argument is a good one. There are many reasons why the NFL is more popular than rugby that have nothing to do with athletic performance on the playing field.


That's exactly my point: MMA is popular for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with athletic performance.

Besides, I think you'll find the NFL isn't more popular than rugby...
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Postby JP » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:01 pm

spug, i have watched enough boxing, i have even boxed myself (ok, as part of thai boxing training, but we had an old skool boxing coach on a set day teaching pure boxing). It simply doesnt have the same appeal. You can link the greatest and best clips all you want but they only attract cursory interest from me. I cant see the "greatness".

I rather watch small time thai boxers even :D
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:03 pm

[quote="tempehmomma"]
[quote="spug_myers"]Come to think of it this thread is asking for similar to the "MMA/NHB favourite fighter/favourite fight" thread, but considering NO-ONE HAS MANAGED TO PICK OUT A FAVOURITE FIGHT in that thread I think it's worth asking again.
spug, stop making passive aggressive personal attacks against me.

WTF?

That's just a (tongue in cheek) knock against the MMA fans on this site, honestly I couldn't give a shit if you're reading it or not. Nothing personal about it.
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:05 pm

[quote="JP"]spug, i have watched enough boxing, i have even boxed myself (ok, as part of thai boxing training, but we had an old skool boxing coach on a set day teaching pure boxing). It simply doesnt have the same appeal. You can link the greatest and best clips all you want but they only attract cursory interest from me. I cant see the "greatness".

I rather watch small time thai boxers even :D

Sigh.

I'm not asking you to like boxing JP. I'm asking you to tell me why you like MMA, in the medium of links to fine fights which display what you like about the sport.

The fact you keep dodging the issue that in 15 YEARS OF UFC THERE HAVE BEEN NO EXCITING FIGHTS just shows that the jitsu mafia have got to you.

It's kind of sad.
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Postby JP » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:07 pm

nah stop talking shit man. You just dont want to read the replies!

And you did say:

[quote]
t's quite simply the superior spectator sport. To me it's a shame that you are missing out.


and i am saying it is a lame ass spectator sport. You shout about GREAT FIGHTS and i say they are passable, but in the end even they are pretty boring.

I'm sorry, but i just dont like your favourite colour!
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:10 pm

SHOW ME THE FIGHTS
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Postby tempehmomma » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:23 pm

[quote="spug_myers"][quote="tempehmomma"]
[quote="spug_myers"]Come to think of it this thread is asking for similar to the "MMA/NHB favourite fighter/favourite fight" thread, but considering NO-ONE HAS MANAGED TO PICK OUT A FAVOURITE FIGHT in that thread I think it's worth asking again.
spug, stop making passive aggressive personal attacks against me.

WTF?

That's just a (tongue in cheek) knock against the MMA fans on this site, honestly I couldn't give a shit if you're reading it or not. Nothing personal about it.
Dude, settle down I was kidding. :lol:
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:34 pm

[quote="tempehmomma"]Dude, settle down I was kidding. :lol:

Phew. I thought you were appointing yourself DEFENDER OF THE MMA THREAD for a moment :wink:

Seems to me mma is losing in the classic fights stakes against boxing.

Next question is whether it's produced enough good or mildly exciting fights to be ranked above tennis...
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Postby ninearms » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:36 pm

Spug, JP sounds like a Rocky-hater. I'd leave it - these people can't be reasoned with. :(
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Postby puppydog » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:45 pm

spug, i won't lie to you baby.

the media machine of the UFC have got the demographic i'm in down to a science, and i eat that shit up.

yes, i've done some martial arts, but that's not the reason i fork out $50 to watch pay-per-view every month or whenever UFC has an event.

maybe you should look at 'events' MMA vs. boxing rather than "fights"

one thing about a good MMA card that boxing has going against it, is.. you can have a card of 7 fights, 3 of which have 'good' to top-notch fighters on it, and that card will take a few hours. You're guaranteed at least a few great fights, a great knockout, a great submission.

You couldn't have 7-12 round boxing matches on tv, all with top contenders... it would take too long and nobody could be arsed. So instead you get a card with one headline and one decent undercard. Very often, headline bouts are either boring or end very quickly. (Not to say that all are boring, but it happens enough)

At least with MMA you get one boring fight, it's over in 15 mins and the next fight is on.
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:03 pm

I'll agree with some of that omar. I'm not going to argue that there are many fucked up things about boxing, and that at its worst it can be so, so tedious.

But at least boxing has the credibility to allow the tedium. If you have a style that wins you can ply that style even if it isn't a fan favourite. You might suffer in pay per view buys, but no-one is going to prevent you from a title shot. No-one is going to throw you out of the organisation or force you to fight differently (see Sven Ottke). I'm happy the sport is more important than the entertainment. A boring football team doesn't get kicked out of the World Cup. You can run off tackle every play in the NFL if you like, it's up to the other team to stop you. A tennis player can soak it up from the baseline without losing her WTA license. Cadel Evans can win the Tour de France without attacking...

That Dana will pick and choose fighters on excitement rather than results is to the detriment of the "sport".

I'll also point out that the reason you can have multiple "meaningful" fights on one card is that the fighters in the UFC are poorly paid. If they had more freedom and more power (and hence more cash) the revenue wouldn't cover the mega-cards. It's the dominant position of the UFC that allows this. Don King used to put together "mega-cards" when he was pretty much the only game in town, but now things are much more open (De La Hoya seems to want to do things right for fighters in particular) so these cards are things of the past. Personally I like to see fighters get paid so I'll accept it.

[quote="omar tan"]You're guaranteed at least a few great fights

That's what I'm asking for here. What are these great fights? At its absolute finest, what heights does MMA scale?

I was quite hyped for the Fedor fight, the let down got me thinking about when the MMA bouts had lived up to their hype. I am getting a bit of a "not often" feeling, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
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Postby tempehmomma » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:04 pm

spug it sounds like your issue is with Dana White not MMA the sport. Does Dana or the Jiu Jitsu Mafia associates threaten to kill a fighter for filing a lawsuit against them like Tim Witherspoon did from Don King Productions?

[quote]Don King has been a lightning rod for controversy throughout his career. He has been the subject of several lawsuits by boxers he managed who alleged that they were forced to hire King's relatives and cronies. He has faced charges of tax evasion by the IRS. Rumors of jury-tampering have swirled around him. And it also became known that the rights to pay-per-view fights he promoted were awarded to organized crime figures, some of whom may have known King from his book-making days.

King has been investigated for possible connections with organized crime. During a 1992 Senate investigation King pleaded the Fifth Amendment when questioned about his connection to mobster John Gotti. In public, however, he has responded to mob allegations by calling them racist.

Lawsuits and fraud prosecutions filed against King
King has been involved in a several litigation cases with boxers that were focused on fraud. They include a 1980 trial in which Muhammad Ali sued King for underpaying him $1.2 million for a fight with Larry Holmes. Ali settled for $50,000. Tim Witherspoon sued King and won $900,000. Mike Tyson sued King for $100 million. It was settled out of court for around 10-14 million.

In May 2003, King was sued by Lennox Lewis, who wants $385 million from the promoter, claiming King used threats to pull Tyson away from a rematch with Lewis. Terry Norris settled a lawsuit out of court against Don King for breach of contract for 7.5 million dollars. In early 2006, Chris Byrd sued Don King for breach of contract and the two eventually settled out of court under the condition that Byrd would be released from his contract with King.

Lloyd's of London
Insurance company Lloyd's of London sued King for $350,000, claiming insurance fraud in a Julio Cesar Chavez fight that was canceled. King was charged with insurance fraud by the U.S. Justice Department. The judge declared a mistrial after a hung jury in 1995, and he was acquitted on a retrial in 1998.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_King_(boxing_promoter)
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Postby puppydog » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:13 pm

[quote="spug_myers"]
That's what I'm asking for here. What are these great fights? At its absolute finest, what heights does MMA scale?


I'd say the Forrest Griffin/Rampage fighht was pretty great. Actually, most fights with Griffin are entertaining.

Any fight with BJ Penn or Anderson Silva is great, I think. Anderson Silva hasn't been challenged by anybody, but in his prime neither was Roy Jones Jr. Still great to watch.

Spencer Fisher has had some very entertaining, closely fought, slugfests.

Antonio Noguiera vs. Tim Sylvia was a great fight.
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